[onlooker]

I make this post with my simple observation, that Anarchy to me is the best form of social or political structure. I used to believe for awhile that maybe some form of Socialism could be but I full reject that now. I found this definition as adequate "absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal."
For it seems that any top down or hierarchical from of social structure inevitably leads to abuse from those at the top, or who hold the levers of power. So a fair question can be asked about Anarchy pertaining to how will people be able to govern themselves if they're is no leadership structure? Well, in the final analysis people should and must coalesce and find solidarity by agreeing on ideas or principles. This is the most solid and enduring feature of Anarchy. Via ideas Society can ideally function for the general welfare of all and in a relatively harmonious manner. The ideas would be similar to those expressed in the Georgia Guidestones. "Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.
2. Guide reproduction wisely - improving fitness and diversity.
3. Unite humanity with a living new language.
4. Rule passion - faith - tradition - and all things with tempered reason.
5. Protect people and nations with fair laws and just courts.
6. Let all nations rule internally resolving external disputes in a world court.
7. Avoid petty laws and useless officials.
8. Balance personal rights with social duties.
9. Prize truth - beauty - love - seeking harmony with the infinite.
10. Be not a cancer on the earth - Leave room for nature - Leave room for nature. "

[Pops]

So move to Somalia or Afghanistan, total freedom.

[SeaGypsy]

Peaceful anarchy requires consensus at some fundamental level. Unfortunately there are always individuals willing to exploit weakness in a group, the bigger & more complex the group, the more opportunities for antisocial behavior. Anarchy/ consensus can work at a village/ community level, on a larger scale it fails to account for significant variables.

[onlooker]

. Anarchy/ consensus can work at a village/ community level, on a larger scale it fails to account for significant variables.

True Sea. That is the problem. Also, in the economic sphere we have the inherent desire for more by some ie. greed. Sometimes I think in the natural sciences they refer to it as "Tragedy of the Commons" I think though that the possible solution as with any of these matters dealing with the organic and flowing history of sentient beings like us, things will develop naturally on their own. I mean that once a sufficient number of people see that this form of social structure is working for most of them, then they or most will buy into it and freely accept it and adhere to its principles.

[Pops]

I posted elsewhere about our increasing presumption regarding basic institutions, rights, laws, resources, etc and this is the perfect example. "If only there were no government people would always do the right thing."

How ridiculous. If there were no framework of laws, and the power of society to enforce them, what do you think those same evil government overlords and barely restrained supranational dictators would be doing to occupy their time? Roaming the meadows plucking flowers to make dandelion wine? Blissfully tripping the light fantastic? Greeting you with a joyful smile, embrace and fond salutation as they stroll merrily on their way?

No, they would be spilling your guts, taking your wife and daughter (if you'd accidently made it long enough to procreate) all the while laughing at your cow-eyed delusion.

We are in a time of global overpopulation and perhaps looming resource limit. Just as our other sometime heroes the hunter-gatherers did when resources were low or neighbors encroached, we will find it worth the population loss to start fights - why else the sudden trend to isolationism, autarky, fascism?

My thought is, the fight to simply retain a liberal democracy in the face of population and resource pressure is about as idealistic as we can afford.

[Newfie]

One needs to ask "Why do we always develop some form of heirical government? How has that evolved? What is its function?"

Jared Diamonds book "The World Until Yesterday" deals with these questions. His answer is that because we are inherently a competitive social animal (see eusocial) we tend to compete between groups. This expresses itself as low level constant warfare, no big battles, lots of murders and skirmishes. Think USA inner city gang violence.

Governments role is to set up rules by which we can resolve grievences without killing one another.

Ther is a great old obscure book "The Uttermost Part of the Earth" about HG culture in Tierra del Fuego that describes this beautifully. How it works close up, how it evolves and why.

[Tanada]

Onlooker the Libertarian ideal is

The government that governs least, governs best.

We need government to maintain the peace (law enforcement) and prevent outsiders from attacking us (minimal military). It is also useful to have the government provide internal communication to foster a cohesive culture (post offices and post roads).

Pretty much everything else the government does is not only a waste, it makes everything more expensive by creating a zillion layers of regulation and complication that are a total waste of money time and effort.

[DesuMaiden]

"The government is at best a necessary evil. At worst, an intolerable one"~Thomas Paine
It has been proven throughout anthropological studies that complex societies must have a government, which inevitably leads to social stratification and inequality/unequal distribution of wealth. Only a very simplistic society can have little to no social stratifcation and stay relatively egalitarian without a complex governing system.

Of course, history repeats itself, and during times social unrest and resource scarcity, a totalitarian government will most likely arise to maintain order while the society it is governing is falling apart.

[onlooker]

Great reply guys. I will try to respond in chronological order. First Pops, Sea, and Newfie. With regards to our inherent nature, I would remind you we are also quite capable of displaying much altruism and cooperative behavior. Anthropological studies attest to that also. Since we seem to weave in and out of pure hypothetical and real world dilemmas, I propose that we entertain the notion that we have already been reduced to a population of 500 million people or so. So that number may be a manageable one to divert what remains of the species to a more harmonious and sustainable path. So, the urges and inclinations of people are both product of their surrounding culture and society while influencing it as well. So I posit that in a society whereby all individuals feel valued, included and satisfied, these people already are invested and happy in said society. Being invested and happy they will voluntarily adhere to its basic principles and laws. As for enforcing these, it can be done with a relatively small police force and civil cooperation. I also do believe the military should be abolished as the idea is that the survivors will all be part of one homogeneous society with no need to defend from outside forces. To ever arrive to this point we as a species would have to have a change in consciousness. To one much more oriented towards love, harmony and peace. Much of our disturbing history lies in the fact of our separation and acrimony with each other. In being together and united we can then better protect the commons as they will be seen as a common asset of everyone and also because criminality borne of greed and destitution will be controlled given that society will be able to reign in the core cause of some of this by providing for the necessities of all and thus inuring people to live without envy or a cumulative consumerism bent. Said society rather will cultivate self actualization, people doing what they like, people improving themselves and finding fulfillment in whatever area of interest they may have. Now for Desu as for the inevitability of Govt. in larger more complex societies. Yes, I am sure those studies are quite correct. However, remember they are studying our history. The past does not always foretell the future. Evolving as a species entails leaving behind facets of our history that have proven useless or counterproductive. Government as has been practiced here on Earth must be abandoned. Yes if our number grow again that would make it more likely that government (s) would arise. But that is the point in keeping our numbers relatively low. Also by not overpopulating, we of course can be much better stewards of the Earth. I am not saying I am right, I am saying that what we have tried so far has not worked, so maybe in the future if these words survive they will be of some use.

[Newfie]

Nice sentiments. Let's hope it comes to pass.

I like the Georgia Guidestones.

In the meantime I'm concentrating on dealing with what reality I now have.

[onlooker]

Nice sentiments. Let's hope it comes to pass.

I like the Georgia Guidestones.

In the meantime I'm concentrating on dealing with what reality I now have.

Yeah, Newfie I hope your finding a little harmony and peace out there in the sea, oh and a little warmth

[onlooker]

It reminds me of what Ibon, said about on the other side of the bottleneck, humanity will be so traumatized that a new consciousness or religion you could say will arise and that is one of living in harmony with each other and Nature. If optimism can exist now it lies in that future whereby all alive with want with all their heart and soul this more benign world , a world of sharing and caring.

[sparky]

.
There has been Anarchist power structures before ,
most notably the Anarchist armed forces of Catalonia during the Spanish civil war .
It worked ( for a while ) only because of decades of previous organization an the moral quality of it's members

other example of anarchist societies are the Amish and the Boers republics,
it worked because it's members had a very high personal ethics and an very narrow religious outlook

[Newfie]

Nice sentiments. Let's hope it comes to pass.

I like the Georgia Guidestones.

In the meantime I'm concentrating on dealing with what reality I now have.

Yeah, Newfie I hope your finding a little harmony and peace out there in the sea, oh and a little warmth

Ha! We have arranged to pass through Philadelphia (to visit family and friends) on our way to and from our hunting cabin. At the moment it's 16°F outside with 6" of snow. I got a nice buck yesterday but due to odd circumstances could not retrieve it until well after dark. So the Wife and I were out climbing the hills and field dressing deer in 17°F by moon light, then dragging him out through a well stomped muddy and wet frozen pasture. "Oh how romantic" she exclaimed (NOT)

But we will be back afloat before Christmas then a short hop down the FL coast before turning East to the Bahamas.

We are confirmed hermits. Three days of family and friends and we are clawing our way to some refuge of solitude be it boat or cabin.

[Newfie]

I think there is a contemporary example of anarchy that occurs in our major cities. I. The ethnic neighborhoods government has largely failed. I think these folks live in a official governmental vacuum.

In this vacuum breeds alternative local government in the form of civic associations, churches and gangs. They each have their own rules and regulations and forms of punishment and retribution and forgiveness.

It's not a perfect example but it has it's relevant elements.

I guess what I'm getting at is that our coalescing into governable communities is a natural part of being human. While it's possible to imagine something different then you are imagining something not human. It may be better, but it would require a massive die off and selection process for us to evolve into something we are not. I think this is what Ibon envisions when he talks about our post bottleneck culture.

[SeaGypsy]

Whatever set of rules you want to have, if everyone present agrees, crime becomes rare to non existent. The Koran talks a lot about Medina & the system which formed the roots of Sharia Law. Without going into specifics, the key aspect of the system was- a walled city with 24/7 gatekeepers who were to ensure everyone entering the city was aware of both Law & punishment as well as the fact the entire population is obliged to assist prosecution. It is said that the 500 years of this system operating before Mohammed, there were only a handful of crimes. Our modern border control systems in some ways are far more advanced, but the flow & volume of people is way beyond being able to control to such extent.

[onlooker]

Newf I will grant it goes against our history and primitive proclivities. I just feel all humans now and into the future need to at least feel that this is a possibility for our species at some point. Otherwise, we may create a self fulfilling prophecy that the world can never be a better one. Oh and interesting escapades you and your wife get into.

[careinke]

Well, this is a topic dear to my heart. As a Permaculture Anarchist via Libertarian via Ron Paul republican via Independent via 70s Republican, I have a slightly different take.

First, there are a LOT more conservative leaning Anarchist in the US than you might think. I would guess, at a minimum 100,000. This is why I was not surprised to see a lot of ballots with no presidential selection but the rest filled out. Voting is important at the local level (State and below), but at the National level, as an Anarchist how could you morally pick any of the candidates? I always vote, and that’s exactly what I did. Many of my friends did the same. Jack Spirko, with a podcast of over 100,000 daily listeners, did the same thing. Do you think his listeners didn’t spread the word over social media?

Second, I think of Anarchy as a goal that may never be totally reached. Nonviolent anarchy is already here in many forms and is expanding quickly. The obvious example is the internet. Nobody forces you to use the internet, they entice you, but you don’t have to use it. Crypto currencies, like Bitcoin, is another example. Unfortunately, right now, the Feds are ordering Coinbase to give them all their customer records for the past three years. So far, Coinbase has refused. Permaculture is basically Anarchy with some added ethics and principles. This board that allows us to freely express our opinions, (as long as we follow the known rules),is a form of anarchy. Look up facebook groups like the buy nothing groups where if you need something, you ask the group, and if you have something you no longer need you post it and people “bid” for it by telling what they plan to use it for. There are also barter groups, local area groups etc. all examples of nonviolent anarchy.

You might notice, if you dig deeply enough, that all of the different flavors of anarchy mentioned above do not require a global, debt based, fractional reserve, monetary system. I try and deal as little as possible with banks, and debt, just out of principle.

I think the real purpose of our government should be to protect and increase the liberty of its population. I think if I had a Christmas wish this year, it would be to let each taxpayer decide what he wants his tax dollar to be spent on, or even better, what he doesn’t want his taxes spent on. It would take a little more effort, but in the end stupid programs would go away.