[onlooker]

This question has lurked in my conscious and subconscious for years now. It is a basic one about can humans ever learn to live better with each other and in their surroundings. I understand that we have not been good stewards of our planet especially in the last 100 years or so. I understand we are biological organisms that feel the need to copulate and reproduce. But the thrust of my question applies to us getting along with each other. Because it seems that is where the greatest suffering has occurred among our species. Can this be remedied? Is is futile as this is how we are biologically programmed. Or can the very trying times ahead forge the impetus for a more enlightened species. Can anything forge that impetus as for example theoretically if Aliens were to visit us. What will it take for us to evolve into more benign and at peace beings?

[KaiserJeep]

You need to understand something first. Humans are animal beings and their physical evolution is grindingly slow, millions of years separate us and the proto-human species. Along with our primate physiques comes a host of behaviors shared by other primate species, commonly called instincts.

Instincts are biological. When anthropologists raise chimp and other primate species babies in isolation, without any nurturing or instruction, certain behaviors emerge that are in common and the experiment is repeatable. By comparing these animals to chimps raised by chimp mothers, you can separate instincts from learned behaviors. Among the instincts are ape troop dynamics, chimps raised in the same area in company of one another share a bond and will instinctively go to war against a stranger troop intruding on their territory. Within the troop itself, male apes battle each other for priority access to food and females.

Those are instincts of biological origin. We humans have the same instincts as the other primates. In fact every time I visit my former High School for a reunion, I find that more than half the people there have never really travelled, and never lived elsewhere. They are perfectly happy to be surrounded by family and extended family in "their" territory.

We have layers of learned behaviors in addition to instincts. But knowing what you are instinctively programmed to do is no help in changing such instinctive behaviors. I am making plans to retire in the MidWest among family and extended family, and that fact amuses me. Among the learned behaviors on top of our instincts are concepts such as patriotism, citizenship, and stewardship of the environment - not the globe, the local environment in particular. In fact, the concept of a globe and a planet is learned knowledge, a complete abstract, which is why anybody who professes to care about the planet by modifying behaviors in any way that adversely impacts himself, his family, or his extended family, will be rightfully considered to be deranged by the other apes around him.

Things like the quaint idea that places you can't see and never visit actually matter run contrary to ape instincts. The idea of patriotism is another abstract, an entire series of brutal experiences in boot camp is used to make disparate members of a platoon into members of an armed service for example - to swap their learned behaviors to favor their buddies over their family and extended family, to suppress the instincts, so they in effect become a different ape tribe, the goons of the politicians.

Ape instincts don't evolve any faster than the biological organisms they are layered on. Millions of years until you notice a difference. The learned behaviors can be changed and frequently are, yours are shaped by parents, other relatives, friends, and co-workers throughout your life, and some have even studied techniques to modify your learned behaviors more effectively (education and psychology).

So don't hold your breath, those instincts are not changing except over millions of years. I personally believe that with the accelerating pace of technical change, the next step in evolution is when we become a hybrid primate/cybernetic species. This step has already begun, we will have a projected 4 billion humans networked with 31 billion internet devices by 2020. You children may tweet with a thought rather than their thumbs, as well.

[Ibon]

Sure we can evolve. Cultural adaptation is more plastic than our genes. The question is already settled actually, just look at where we have moved culturally in the past couple of thousand years. That our culture sits on top of our animal instincts does represent the challenge.

An example. That we are status seeking apes is pretty deep in our genes. What the symbols are that represent status depends on culture. It can be a mustang car. Or it can be holding a party with your neighbors sharing the fruits of your garden. That is the part that is malleable.

Culture defines whether we trash our planet or respect it. This is not in our genes. It is in our culture. Currently we are culturally flawed.

It doesn't have to be this way. This trashing of the planet is not written in our genes. We did not evolve to go into human overshoot. It is misguided cultural values that took us there.

It's a bit more complicated of course. We overcame our predators, famine and disease, for the last couple of generations. A temporary imbalance at best.

What KJ wrote about cyber hybridization? I really don't know how deep this will go. This is unknown territory. I will ask some of the millennials here at Totumas tonight at dinner what they think and will comment later.

[onlooker]

Thanks Ibon and Kaiser for your always lucid and insightful comments. I think herein lies the pathway to evolve. Even in primates examples exist of a different sort of more benign interactions such as nurturing , playing and sharing. I think to portray our instincts as aggressively self serving while technically correct miss completely the symbiosis of interactions in a group setting. As Ibon stated we are uniquely cultural beings given our language skills, our abstract and highly developed cognitive capacities and our cumulative understanding. Surely by now we all must understand the futility of war as an example. So while Kaiser you are making some clear points, I side with Ibon , in that our instincts can be overridden by our cultural alignment. With the proper incentive and cultivation a Culture can arise that will exemplify harmony within itself and as part of the Natural world. Oh and certainly what is coming and what we will experience can provide just that incentive.

[KaiserJeep]

Ibon, I don't think you are acknowledging the difference between true instincts and what I called learned behaviors and you called culture.

Whether or not one has culture and learning, we all have primate instincts. They are strong enough that you will rationalize them, creating excuses for what you instinctively want to do.

You are completely correct that instincts can be overcome. I went through a brutal boot camp which changed some of mine, using techniques that probably date back at least as far as the Roman Legions. However, overcoming instinctive behavior calls for education, strong instruction in moral principles, and both the desire to change and the willingness to overcome considerable internal resistance. For most of the 6 billion overshoot humans, who struggle for the basics like food and water and shelter, changing instinctive behaviors is not in the cards, simply not possible, due to a complete lack of resources. So there are 6+ billion Kudzu Apes acting as instincts demand. Even if the rest of us can overcome those instincts in ourselves, our fate is the same as the vast majority of apes who share the planet with us, and have no capacity for change in their lives.

You and I are among the 5% most privileged on the Earth. I sometimes have to remind myself of that when I'm digging in the ground with a pick and shovel, or cutting/splitting firewood. My values and perceptions of life are very different from those who struggle to survive.

[DesuMaiden]

This question has lurked in my conscious and subconscious for years now. It is a basic one about can humans ever learn to live better with each other and in their surroundings. I understand that we have not been good stewards of our planet especially in the last 100 years or so. I understand we are biological organisms that feel the need to copulate and reproduce. But the thrust of my question applies to us getting along with each other. Because it seems that is where the greatest suffering has occurred among our species. Can this be remedied? Is is futile as this is how we are biologically programmed. Or can the very trying times ahead forge the impetus for a more enlightened species. Can anything forge that impetus as for example theoretically if Aliens were to visit us. What will it take for us to evolve into more benign and at peace beings?

Doubt humans will become significantly more enlightened in the future. More than likely, we are soon going to become another evolutionary dead-end, like the dinosaurs. Our inheritant biological instincts combined with our ability to destroy everything around us--including ourselves--will be our undoing. I've come to accept this reality, which cannot be changed regardless of how much wishful thinking we apply. Like the website die off.org http://www.dieoff.org/index.html mentioned, humans will eventually become extinct. When this will happen, nobody knows. But it is only logical to assume that our extinction is quiet inevitable given that all species eventually become extinct. There is no exception to this rule. We are no exception. Except for the fact that human beings are "an exceptionally rapacious primate" in that we will do everything in our power to expand our empire of civilization, even if it means destroying every possible living organism on this planet, including ourselves.

[onlooker]

Desu, your treatise at this point looks quite rationale.

[GoghGoner]

Evolution isn't usually slow, it happens quickly during bottlenecks. Of course, if we evolve, we won't be humans anymore.

[sparky]

.
Life is change , every living thing must respond to its environment
the biggest pressure on our specie is that we are self domesticating ourselves .
we are the domesticated product of our own "society "
any breeder will tell you that compared to their wild progenitors ,
domesticated animals are fat ,sex obsessed and quite neurotic

[KaiserJeep]

Desu, your treatise at this point looks quite rationale.

...and agreeably short, for a change. Thank you for your thoughts and for the brevity of their expression.

Now, as for the possibility that we will evolve and lose the primate instincts to procreate and occupy territory, not a chance, none.

Then again the possibility that we can utilize education and good policy to overcome primate instincts, I believe we could, but only in relatively wealthy 1st World countries, where such policies are not needed, due to naturally falling birthrates. Note also that whether one builds a wall or not, eventually one will be overwhelmed by those from outside your 1st World country by the unchecked hordes of 3rd World refugees - unless you can starve them first.

We WILL effectively starve the 3rd World when we outbid them for the remaining petroleum on the downslope of the Peak Oil production curve. We will use the oil for growing food, for keeping our technological civilization alive and well, and for recreation. They will die, because they can't afford to compete with the 1st World.

[onlooker]

Well Sparky, this was all made possible by breaching temporarily some of the natural limits. This accomplished mainly via the tremendous bounty of fossil fuels. This "domesticated" situation will correct itself soon with the corrections on our overshooting carrying capacity. The question thereafter will be can we accept this situation gracefully and endeavoring to cooperate or will the trying nature of what is to come highlight our brutish primitive instincts. The answer will reveal if we will evolve or not

[sparky]

.
Whatever works will impose itself , naturally !
I suspect some reversion to a past model

[Kylon]

Yes, through cybernetic means and genetic engineering.

Also the capacity to function via learned behaviors versus instincts, that is, where our cultural programming overwhelms our instincts, would be a very fast way to naturally evolve.

This of course is dependent on the culture reinforcing behaviors that are conducive to the reproductive fitness of people in question.

To put it in plain terms, if your culture tells you not to breed, then it reduces your reproductive fitness.

The genes that predispose you to be culturally programmed will decrease, making you more prone to either resist that culture or listen to instincts.

Whereas if you have a culture that punishes people who do not follow the rules, and do not follow cultural programming, by curtailing their capacity to breed, you decrease the reproductive fitness of people who operate more via instincts, versus learned behavior.

Of course there are extreme ethical problems with a system like that, a society like that would be very restrictive and controlling.

[onlooker]

Or we may evolve wisely in a classical sense from outside stimuli. In this case from the tremendous upheaval resulting from the mismatch of our huge population and its activities and the hospitality or lack thereof of the Earth to so many of us and our activities. So, that is what is so interesting to me. That via culture and following a certain cultural paradigm we can evolve or adapt so much faster than any animals can.
We do have examples of cultures throughout our history who practiced restraint/frugality in response to environmental constraints. We also have examples of cultures who existed in relative harmony among each other. Our instincts or genetic predispositions are not totally at odds with having a culture with these traits. Especially given our ability to reason and the power of cultural reinforcement that serves the needs of everyone in the community or society.