[SeaGypsy]

Actually they didn't ban guns, just full automatics & large magazines. Also they didn't confiscate weapons, they staged a buy back. There are more guns in Australia now than before the Howard laws.

[Shaved Monkey]

The likelihood of being murdered by gunshot fell by 72 per cent in Australia after introducing strict gun control
Australia introduced it after a lone gunman killed 35 people
Since then Australia has not suffered another mass shooting. (5 or more people)


Last year a Reuters analysis of Australian Bureau of Statistics figures showed that in 1996, Australia had had 311 murders, of which 98 involved guns. In 2014, when the population had increased from about 18 million to 23 million, 238 people were murdered, 35 by guns.

In other words, the likelihood of being murdered by gunshot fell by 72 per cent in that period, from 0.54 to 0.15 per 100,000 people, Reuters said.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 80671.html

I notice that the likelihood of being murdered didn't drop all that much just the method of your demise.

Yes it did
18 mill Population 311 Murders (before ban)
23 mill Population 238 Murders (after ban)

[Plantagenet]

I don't think it would do too much violence to the second amendment if devices that turn guns into what are basically machine guns were outlawed.

We already have a law that outlaws machine guns. Reagan signed that one into law. These devices that turn some long guns into machine guns already break the spirit of that law.

IMHO at the least we need a new law to ban the trigger wheels and "bump" devices that turn some long guns into machine guns.

Cheers!

[Cog]

OK a bit of explanation, or at least a plausible explanation. The reason he had such a large number of rifles in the room is because when you fire a rifle on full automatic for any length of time the barrel gets red hot (+1400 degrees F. ) and if you continue to fire it it will malfunction or even blow up in your face. So his plan was to fire a weapon through a clip or two then set it aside to cool and pick up the next weapon in the line and repeat the process.
If the cops had not determined which room he was in and started their assault he wold of methodically used every round of ammunition he had in the room before he was done.

I agree and this video shows how you can cause a meltdown in as little as 400 rounds in a cheaper grade AR with automatic fire. The hand guards will catch on fire and the aluminum gas tube will melt. Stoner actually designed the gas tube to fail first to save the barrel and receiver. A more expensive grade AR can generally fire 800 rounds in continuous automatic before catastrophic failure. Course normally you do not encounter this situation with semi-automatic fire. The barrel and components can stay cool enough, relatively speaking.

A bit of overkill for the shooter to bring 24 guns. Four would have been adequate for what he was doing.

Pro-tip. Don't grab the barrel of AR with your bare hand after you have ripped through a couple of 30 round magazines. You will hear the sizzle of cooked hand. It is a lesson you learn after the first time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cr9e3N6HEw

[Plantagenet]

girlfriend of Vegas shooter returns to US and is met by FBI at LA airport

girlfriend-las-vegas-gunman-arrives-in-us

This should be interesting...........she may know his motive...........if he had one............

[Cog]

But do we trust the FBI to ever give us that motive? What I'm saying is if this guy was a Confederate flag waving, Nascar watching, Trump voting, Putin supporting white supremacist, I have a feeling we would already know all about him.

[Newfie]

Shaved,

The situation in the USA is a whole lot different than Australia. AND it is extreamly difficult to have an adult discussion because our positions have become almost religious creed. Because of this incident I looked at some statistics from the FBI.

For sake of argument let's separate the gun issue into three or four parts.
Suicide
Mass murder
Ethnic violence
All the rest

Suicide...some folks include suicide in gun homicide stats. But that is very difficult because there are so many other options open without guns you never really know how many you would prevent.

Mass murders....there may be more similarity here to Australia, and if you have a point I think it would show up here. OTOH, in the USA at least, this is a distinct minority of gun deaths.

Ethnic violence.....stats show us that within in the 20-29 male black ethnic group we have nj dear rates that are amongst the worst in the world. The murder rates within that demographic are about an order of magnitude (10x) higher than the general population. This also feeds the current BLM controversy, the situation simulates a war zone.

All the rest...ain't so bad then.

Presumably the desire is to reduce the number of murders in the USA. That brings us to the ethnic block. Almost all of those guns are already illegal, and or in the hands of felons, who are not allowed to own guns. In short the problem is not a question of changing the laws, the current laws are already sufficient IF THEY WERE ENFORCEABLE!

There is the rub and the root of the problem, our laws are not enforceable. So the anti-gun folks could get their wish for a total ban on guns, 100%. Who is going to go into the neighborhoods and get them? The evil black slaying cops? I don't think so.

[evilgenius]

Some kind of required education for gun owners would be good. Where I live, they make hunters take a hunter's safety class. It teaches things like the trajectory bullets take when they ricochet. They don't bounce off like light. They only differ from the ground, in this instance of a parking lot, and travel in the same direction a few inches above. It makes you wonder how many of the victims took shots in vital places because they got down? Never mind that horror, though, a gun owner safety class might help prevent children getting hold of guns and shooting whatever tiny fingers pulling triggers can. It might teach people not to shoot themselves in the leg or foot. Firing a few rounds in the class might help newcomers appreciate what weapon kickback is like, and be ready for it if they have to defend themselves. Also, it might be a good place to offer contact details for those who can help people who suffer from depression and other forms of mental conditions that might lead to suicide or murder. Just the contact details, without pushing anything on people. That might be enough to save some people. Trying to save everybody from this position might inflict too much harm on people's perceived 'rights' for anything like this to get passed.

I would like to see some scenario recognition teaching as well, but that might also be a bridge too far. Imagine an attack like this in a place where the crowd has an average, or above average, level of gun possession. Imagine it being the kind of attack where people feel certain that the shooter must be nearby, close to them in the crowd. Now, imagine what would happen when people started to pull out their guns. It would be like that moment in the Arthurian legend where the two armies were seeking peace, but a soldier pulled his sword because a snake came out by his feet, total pandemonium.

I don't think you can even begin to address domestic violence and guns in such a class. Most men are far too proud to accept that anybody could tell them anything. Those with anger issues aren't going to listen anyway. Again, you could provide contact details. You might be able to slip in a few important things, like the importance of being able to communicate well enough to defend yourself verbally from your woman. Again, maybe a bridge too far. Pride goeth before the fall.

[careinke]

Some kind of required education for gun owners would be good. Where I live, they make hunters take a hunter's safety class. It teaches things like the trajectory bullets take when they ricochet.

Gun safety classes should be mandatory in all government schools. Around fourth grade would be a good place to start...

[Cog]

Approximately half the high end rifles this guy bought was in the November 2016 time frame. Interesting. Pro-Trump people tend to be vocal about it in social media. (Like me) but this guy is a ghost. I haven't bought any new rifles since Trump got elected. Why was this guy acquiring so many?

I'm truly not a conspiracy freak. I just find the timing of his rifle acquisitions interesting as well as his target.

[Plantagenet]

But do we trust the FBI to ever give us that motive? What I'm saying is if this guy was a Confederate flag waving, Nascar watching, Trump voting, Putin supporting white supremacist, I have a feeling we would already know all about him.

You've got a valid point there.

After watching the obama administration say crazy things like the Muslim terror attack at Ft. Hood was just workplace violence, and other attacks like the Muslim bomb attack on the Boston Marathon and the Muslim mass murder attack at the Gay Club in Orlando weren't terrroism, I've lost some faith in the ability of our government to be objective in their investigations.

One of the mysteries in the Las Vegas attack is that photos from the shooter's hotel room seem to show a note carefully placed on the table next to bed. Is it actually a note? Is this a suicide note? Does it revel the shooter's motives?

Who knows? So far the official word is that there was no motive and the attacker apparently had no affiliations, contacts, or even opinions on anything. That seems unlikely to me.

Hopefully the facts will eventually come out on this. So far it is just very very very horrible.

[vtsnowedin]

Some kind of required education for gun owners would be good. Where I live, they make hunters take a hunter's safety class. It teaches things like the trajectory bullets take when they ricochet. They don't bounce off like light. They only differ from the ground, in this instance of a parking lot, and travel in the same direction a few inches above. It makes you wonder how many of the victims took shots in vital places because they got down? Never mind that horror, though, a gun owner safety class might help prevent children getting hold of guns and shooting whatever tiny fingers pulling triggers can. It might teach people not to shoot themselves in the leg or foot. Firing a few rounds in the class might help newcomers appreciate what weapon kickback is like, and be ready for it if they have to defend themselves. Also, it might be a good place to offer contact details for those who can help people who suffer from depression and other forms of mental conditions that might lead to suicide or murder. Just the contact details, without pushing anything on people. That might be enough to save some people. Trying to save everybody from this position might inflict too much harm on people's perceived 'rights' for anything like this to get passed.

I would like to see some scenario recognition teaching as well, but that might also be a bridge too far. Imagine an attack like this in a place where the crowd has an average, or above average, level of gun possession. Imagine it being the kind of attack where people feel certain that the shooter must be nearby, close to them in the crowd. Now, imagine what would happen when people started to pull out their guns. It would be like that moment in the Arthurian legend where the two armies were seeking peace, but a soldier pulled his sword because a snake came out by his feet, total pandemonium.

I don't think you can even begin to address domestic violence and guns in such a class. Most men are far too proud to accept that anybody could tell them anything. Those with anger issues aren't going to listen anyway. Again, you could provide contact details. You might be able to slip in a few important things, like the importance of being able to communicate well enough to defend yourself verbally from your woman. Again, maybe a bridge too far. Pride goeth before the fall.

Yyou lost me with this one.

You might be able to slip in a few important things, like the importance of being able to communicate well enough to defend yourself verbally from your woman.

Gun safety should never have anything to do with arguing with your wife.
Hunter safety courses are pretty common in the USA as they are a requirement to obtaining a hunting license. I have been through the course a half dozen times for myself ,children and other peoples children that did not have someone to take them. The problem is inner city children and those in one parent families where the parent that has custody is afraid of guns and think keeping their children totally ignorant of guns, and gun safety, will somehow protect them from ever being near a gun and in danger.

[Newfie]

And none of this address' the guns in that 20-29 yo black male group. i can't see the point of running them through a hunter safety education class, although I too have attended multiple times. These guys are not hunting rabbits.

The problems with that group are manifold. Lack of education, skills, male role models, job opportunities, bias' against them, etc. They are not dumb, they do what they do because it makes sense in their situation. To change those gun death statistics you need to change their situation. And that idea is going nowhere fast.

[Newfie]

As to the Vegas shooter, we have 330,000,000 people in the USA, What are the chances that at least one of them is nuts enough to do this? Think about your high school class, any nutters in that crowd?

Vegas is just statistics. Sad and horrible, but extremely hard to eradicate.

[vtsnowedin]

And none of this address' the guns in that 20-29 yo black male group. i can't see the point of running them through a hunter safety education class, although I too have attended multiple times. These guys are not hunting rabbits.

The problems with that group are manifold. Lack of education, skills, male role models, job opportunities, bias' against them, etc. They are not dumb, they do what they do because it makes sense in their situation. To change those gun death statistics you need to change their situation. And that idea is going nowhere fast.

Yes but if gun safety classes were universal perhaps we could reduce the cases where a child plays with a gun his older brother or sister brought into the home (as part of their gang life) and shoots a relative by sheer incompetence. Statistically unimportant but when it is a baby laying in her crib the horror can't be denied.

[vtsnowedin]

As to the Vegas shooter, we have 330,000,000 people in the USA, What are the chances that at least one of them is nuts enough to do this? Think about your high school class, any nutters in that crowd?

Vegas is just statistics. Sad and horrible, but extremely hard to eradicate.

But yet the Democrats in Congress think that if they could seize and melt every gun in America they could save us all from all harm.
Unfortunately the criminals on the street and the foreign governments of the world don't see any reason to be nice if all the guns were gone and would move on unarmed Americans as soon as they were rendered defenseless.

[Shaved Monkey]

Pretty sure disarming the criminals would be the first move as to being over run when unarmed how does this happen ?
Do they come by boat or air carrying guns?
Pretty sure no one is saying disarm the military

Meanwhile the Vegas shooting has made some Australians want to have a second gun amnesty and lock illegal gun runners up for life

".....law enforcement experts had estimated up to 600,000 illegal guns remain on Australian streets, and that "this is just far too many".

"Australians are rightfully proud of our gun laws, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do more," he said.

"We need to let well-meaning Australians hand in any guns, especially high-powered, military style weapons, that they shouldn't have."


http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politi ... yu60s.html