[Ibon]

So my evolving sentiments have given up much hope to fight the fight in trying to get the bulk of humanity to change behaviors and priorities to confront the upcoming constraints that we so often discuss here caused by human overshoot.

In other words, for years I was contemplating how our society can get through the bottleneck with a minimum of suffering. Now I am increasingly writing off a big chunk of humanity. Those uninterested to adapt, willing to follow demagogues in a false hope, populations living in bio regions or urban centers woefully overpopulated and unprepared for adaptation.

I am writing off macro government solutions, I am writing off the population woefully ignorant. I am writing off the whole of modern civilization and contracting my focus down to friends, family local community.

If I am feeling this way what about the filthy rich?

We shouldn't have the hubris to assume that what we talk about here is knowledge limited to our small community and others similar. Who doubts that the think tanks and government agencies, the military, politicians, financial elite, etc, etc, don't know very well the BIG issues of the 21st century?

[mmasters]

Ultimately we're all here on our own. I don't think it's supposed to be our job to care for humanity, there's too many duds out there, people with bad judgement, bad ideologies, etc. Earth isn't a place full of wonderful, insightful and responsible people. It's people with a lot of problems generally, including the rich. I believe that's why we are here in the first place is to work out issues and if we can succeed in working them out we can then move to a higher position where we can really help others.

I think at our best we should strive to overcome our issues, make something of ourselves and discover something that can benefit humanity. That is the greatest gift for yourself and the collective.

[Ibon]

Ultimately we're all here on our own. I don't think it's supposed to be our job to care for humanity, there's too many duds out there, people with bad judgement, bad ideologies, etc. Earth isn't a place full of wonderful, insightful and responsible people. It's people with a lot of problems generally, including the rich. I believe that's why we are here in the first place is to work out issues and if we can succeed in working them out we can then move to a higher position where we can really help others.

I think at our best we should strive to overcome our issues, make something of ourselves and discover something that can benefit humanity. That is the greatest gift for yourself and the collective.

I agree pretty much but my main point is not questioning why we are here. If I recognize these sentiments in myself of writing off a big chunk of humanity where by the impacts of these sentiments are pretty minimal since I am pretty much a recluse imagine a moment where we are heading collectively as a society if these sentiments are shared by those whose impacts are far greater. That is why I mentioned the rich. The adjective filthy is in reference to the tendency of those who have the most to loose tend to be the most socio pathological in distrusting their fellow human, building walls, being defensive, hording for themselves.

I think the value of a human life is under siege. I recognize in myself the sentiments of writing off with a value judgement of those humans who I feel are not worthy of the gift and miracle of life that they are blessed with. Of course one might respond, "well Ibon, who are you to judge" . Fair enough, but my reason for passing this judgement is not arrogance or tribal as much as a reasoned analysis of how shallow and truly worthless many peoples lives are. How mediocre. How numb and unconscious that they go through life. For me they are a waste of space. ecological space. Remember their presence is part of this great process whereby we replaced natural ecosystems with the biomass of humans. The Great Biotic Exchange.

If 100 humans chasing materialistic shallow dreams replaced several thousand acres of natural ecosystems in order to support them ask yourself this interesting question.

All of those organisms making up that web of life that was displaced existed with an integrity and inter relationship with other life forms that is outstanding. Displaced by a few hundred high consuming mediocre humans living diminished lives.

From my point of view I cannot help but write them off as a waste.

And If I harbor these sentiments what about those whose impacts are greater than my own, being the recluse that I am.

Aren't we seeing all around the world a disregard for the value of a human life exactly because most humans do not deserve the space they occupy.

I am being brutally honest.

[mmasters]

I think if god can engineer a Universe where we have such wonderful and beautiful things like we see here on earth and then add to that that we have such mediocre people dominating the earth that really says something. I've thought a lot about this and my analysis is that physical reality is where life goes that hasn't made the cut for the higher levels of existence. That's why there's so many dud people here, this is where they go. On top of that the people that are the duds come back through progressive reincarnation until they prove themselves worthy of a better existance. They are the ones that will ultimately inherit the upcoming mess. The great people will move onto greener pastures.

I personally don't believe in heaven or hell, I think earth is heaven or hell and right now it's subdued under the guise of prosperity. The good days will eventually end though and it will get ugly. I may see some of it in my later life but I plan on moving on from this place.

[Plantagenet]

Aren't we seeing all around the world a disregard for the value of a human life exactly because most humans do not deserve the space they occupy.

I am being brutally honest.

Yes, yes....that needs to be said.

In fact, not only do most humans not deserve the space they occupy, but the underlying reason for many of the problems we face and the planet faces is too many humans---i.e. overpopulation.

TPTB predicated the global economic system on unlimited economic growth, and that assumes unlimited population growth. The filthy rich WANT more and more people to buy more houses and more cars and more gasoline and more EVs and more crap from Wal-Mart so the rich become richer and richer.

But the earth has limits----it can't support unlimited numbers of humans.

Somethings got to give----either the earth or the unchecked, unlimited population growth that BAU requires is heading for a fall.

Cheers!

[Newfie]

There have been several articles written about exclusive hide-always. Some buy islands, others condos in old middle silos, others who knows. What struck me in reading the articles was that although they were concerned they didn’t seem to have any kind of consistent idea about the threats we faced. And IMHO many of them didn’t have a realistic view of life on earth. In fact they sounded a lot like any bunch of preposterous, just with more money.

Some said they were prepping just because they had so much money they could invest it in marginal ideas. I got the idea more wealthy were prepping simply because they could.

[Outcast_Searcher]

I think that overall, the discussion of and envy of wealth has gotten so far off the rails, it's not even productive, generally.

You have the NYT liberals (I take the NYT and look at the editorials, and reactions, daily) fighting weekly over how to even define rich.

Those making "only" well into six figures blast those making more, and scream about deficits, even while fighting tooth and nail to preserve any tax preferences that might impact THEM or any group they want to protect. And re protecting every imaginable tax preference that might impact liberals -- that seems to extend to liberals generally.

If you doubt this, just look at the entire debate over the tax code changes. God forbid some rich person living by choice in NYC or SF in a multimillion dollar house can't deduct all the mortgage interest. Or some grad student receiving a "free" education must pay some tax on part of that value. Or on and on and on.

But of course -- "make the rich pay more taxes" -- as long as it doesn't impact me or mine, is endlessly the cry. (As though the wealthy in the US don't already pay a HUGE proportion of the federal income taxes).

The GOP is no better -- it's just from the opposite angle. Heaven forbid anyone wealthy needs to pay a meaningful tax rate, even if they want endless government programs (just a different set than democrats emphasize).


If you doubt this, just take a real look at the ongoing commentary from both sides about the ongoing changes for the current proposed tax "reform".

It gets to be more of a political spectator sport than anything meaningful.

...

I'm willing to have a system where there is virtually NO deduction of ANYTHING, beyond one large deduction which can protect the poor and lower middle class from paying high taxes.

Under that system, people like Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, and Mitt Romney would pay income taxes whenever they realize any significant amount of income or profits on investments. No more hiding behind tax free interest, trusts, or any other special rules.

But neither side is willing to BEGIN to make realistic adjustments to lead to such a system -- only blame the other side that the system exists. And act bewildered that the system doesn't magically get better.

[Newfie]

Yup, kinda why I’ve opted out of politics and voteing. Same circus, different ring.

[asg70]

The rich are oftentimes very bright and they are not clueless about what's on its way. Sure, the right-wing denier bunch like the Koch brothers and the Cheetoh in Charge are, but people like Ted Turner and many others are "woke" to doom. Elon Musk is "woke" to a certain extent, but because he is attempting to "science the shit out of it", he's the target of ridicule here. But that's a bit more socially constructive than just quietly building an underground bunker.

[Ibon]

I wonder about the rich and wealthy in China and all their ambitious infrastructure planning around the world. They obviously have an ascending sense of destiny toward greatness. How many wealthy Chinese are oriented toward building doomsteads or thinking defensively about global civilization going into decline? I see the wealthy in China focused on wealth accumulation and ambitions toward greatness and dominance. Unified as a country toward these goals. The wealthy all feed off each others ambitions and t he citizens and central government are all rowing the boat the same direction toward their glorious destiny of becoming the rising empire of the 21st century.

North America on the other hand feels far more fragmented and divided. Split. There is no real sense of civic unity. Lot's of anger and pessimism and lack of confidence in institutions, in politicians, in the economy. I sense sometimes that in the USA at the moment we are also all feeding off of each others fragmented pessimism of institutions being irreparably broken.

Are my sentiments because I belong to a nation lost and tattered with internal divisiveness?

[Newfie]

I read Indiatoday and Zeenews to attempt at a different perspective.

What I get from that is they long to have our rich life style but are culturally bar shit crazy. Far more fragmented, tribal, and caught in mideival thinking than we are.

I used to talk about the “expectation gap”, I see it writ large in India. What do their rich think? Hevan only knows, but they are likely just like any American or Russian oligarch.

[Cog]

Don't care what the rich are up to, nor what the poor are up to. As long as I'm comfortable I find I have enough to worry about without stressing over who is richer or poorer than me. I will leave such worry to you social justice warriors.

[Cog]

LOL social justice warrior ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Cog]

Fairness does not entitle you to pick my pocket to enrich your own. Equal justice before the law means what it says. That in the court of law, regardless of your circumstance, you are treated the same as everyone else. Not some income redistribution scheme that you lefties are so fond of.

[Cog]

Fairness does not entitle you to pick my pocket to enrich your own. Equal justice before the law means what it says. That in the court of law, regardless of your circumstance, you are treated the same as everyone else. Not some income redistribution scheme that you lefties are so fond of.

You are arguing with yourself. Make no sense as usual. We have income distribution. It's called taxes.

LOL really don't understand the purposes of taxes do you? I'm sure in your leftie-verse its to take from the rich and give to the poor.