[evilgenius]

I've been thinking about the #metoo thing lately. Originally it went after some obvious abusers. Then it began to go after some who may or may not have been guilty, like Garrison Keillor. It has relied upon the weight of accusation, the great numbers of women who spoke out against Harvey Weinstein, for instance, because the crimes weren't of the type where there was evidence. There is such a thing as rape evidence, but not when it isn't collected in the immediate aftermath of the crime. Besides that, history has always regarded that accusation needs the weight of two or more witnesses when testimony alone is all that will give merit to an accusation. That's why the he said/she said type of allegation has such a poor track record of conviction. It's too easy to discredit a single witness, and there will only be one witness to such a crime. Accusations can be brought falsely, so you can't convict someone on the basis of one witness, especially the one claiming harm. Society may have decided for a time that many of the he said/she said accusations can be lumped together, and the sheer weight of the mass of singular accusation merit their being taken seriously, but you have to ask yourself whether that will hold up in retrospect. At any rate, there doesn't seem to be any room for forgiveness of those who are either being found guilty, or are being tried in the court of public opinion.

As for the difference between a serial abuser and one who does it just once, I would like to remind people that is only down to the fact that a serial abuser will have generated so many witnesses against them that there will be overwhelming evidence by testimony. As long as the two of them have done it, they have committed the same crime. The serial offender will get more time, but there is still a basic sentence based upon a single offense. If a person wants to excuse a one time offense as a crime committed in a state of passion over which the perpetrator had limited control, then I would like to remind that person that it only takes a second to make a mistake with a power saw and cut off your hand. That lasts forever, while the years of prison for being convicted of rape don't. It took longer to commit the rape. Long enough for it to need some level of commitment to keep it going.

Anyway, I started this thread because of my uncertainty over the attitudes toward the abusers I have been seeing in various places. They are not kind. You might also say they aren't fair, when considering those who might be falsely accused. Abuse shapes people. It especially shapes them if it happens to them while they are young. I would like to suggest that without forgiveness it continues to shape people because of the way it sticks around, in their hatred and fear. There is an element of forgetfulness in forgiveness, though not to entirely forget so as not to forget the impact of the crime, that allows a person to live a normal life. First you recognize it was done to you, and that it shaped you, then you exercise forgiveness to shed them and it. There is an example of this in our culture today, in the way we forgive our parents. But we don't often recognize how bad our parents were. We simply forgive them. That might just make us into bad parents in turn, not having shed the bad elements.

I suggested in another thread, and repeat it here, that I think formal education lacks a particular discipline that it should have, the study of parenting. I think there ought to be a school of parenting, like there is a school of management. Our parents are meant to bring us up. They are expected to teach us how to cope with the world. These days kids go to school, but the schools are not expected to teach kids everything. Much about what it takes to become a successful adult is expected to come from our parents. You know, it just doesn't. The world is full of half-started and do loop adults. Many of our parents would have given us what we need, but they never got it from their parents.

#metoo is meant to point at an overarching issue, that abuse runs rampant and has causes. I would say the number one cause actually comes back to this parenting issue. People have to be taught how to graciously exercise power. They have to learn what it means to have others under them. They should learn from somewhere that to put those people at risk is also to put yourself at risk, not because of the fear of getting caught but because such thinking will distort your worldview until it becomes a solipsistic nightmare.

[Ibon]

If you are male with a normal testerone level and if you then find yourself in a position of power with subordinates and if you buy into the status of what that power affords you then you will at some point in your career be most likely tempted to draw in a female underling for sex.

Many female underlings will feel harassed, others will be attracted to the status rank of the alpha male.

Underneath the cerebral cortex lies that lizard brain that loves to fuck.

We are monkeys.

[KaiserJeep]

EG, the unfortunate aspect of this is that in some cases the accusation of harassment does more damage than the crime itself IMHO.

I had a workplace friend who occasionally went fishing/camping/Jeeping with me. He had two teenage daughters and a wife who unfortunately began smoking crack cocaine. In the divorce, he had no problem demonstrating that she was not a fit parent because of substance abuse. However during the negotiations, she realized that she was not going to get enough income to support her drug habit, with him caring for the two daughters. One daughter accused him of abuse, one vehemently denied it, and it appeared that she would be awarded both custody of two daughters and the house - while he got the mortgage and no visitation. Then she left town with a drug dealer boyfriend, and her fate was unknown until she hung herself some months later. The problem is, that he was almost labelled a sex offender, and was only spared same when the one daughter recanted her story, saying her Mother had put her up to it. There had never been any evidence other than some vague allegations, and the result of these came perilously close to both daughters being in the custody of a drug abusing Mother and an innocent man labelled a sex offender.

Keep in mind that I knew both of them for 20+ years, and both had been responsible parents until the divorce proceeding, and I really doubted at the time that there was anything underlying the accusation, as did most people. However child sexual abuse is the one effective tactic available to her, and one that almost worked.

I completely understand that "innocent until proven guilty" is a principle of law, that is intended to prevent the state from depriving somebody of liberty without due process. That's a good standard for criminal activity, it was even written into the UN's Declaration of Human Rights in 1948. However in the #metoo era, a man is assumed guilty when a woman accuses him. What do you say when a woman who seems very credible makes an explosive accusation of sexual assault against a man who vehemently denies it? What do you do?

In the case of Kevin Spacey, the alleged offense against a 14yo boy occurred over 30 years ago, beyond the statute of limitations in that state, and there was no evidence beyond the allegation - yet he lost his job and probably the remainder of his career. Of course, that vague statement about not remembering while apologizing lent credibility to the accusation. I find myself on the side of the accuser in that case - while realizing full well that in the absence of a trial and evidence - or at least testimony - nobody will ever know the truth.

[KaiserJeep]

If you are male with a normal testerone level and if you then find yourself in a position of power with subordinates and if you buy into the status of what that power affords you then you will at some point in your career be most likely tempted to draw in a female underling for sex.

Many female underlings will feel harassed, others will be attracted to the status rank of the alpha male.

Underneath the cerebral cortex lies that lizard brain that loves to fuck.

We are monkeys.

I would only note that sexual abuse, rape, polygamy, and numerous other behaviors that we condemn are well known in the animal kingdom. Bottlenose dolphins for example form "gangs" of males that kidnap female dolphins, holding them captive while forcibly having sex with them. In the absence of female dolphins they often cross species boundaries, including forcing sex upon seals and human females. Part of the problem is purely mechanical, I remember the National Geographic video that established that it takes three Blue Whales to mate successfully, the female has to be steadied by a second male for the act of coitus to succeed, then the males switch around. For Blue Whales this does not seem to be rape as with dolphins, the female is obviously cooperative.

Monkeys I only know from reading Anthopology. That and zoos - and if somebody kept me on display in a cage, I think I would misbehave as much as possible as well.

[MD]

oh my what a complex problem. I can't get my head around it, except to say that is more evidence of just how crazy and unsettled our society has become.
I fear for our children. They inherit a mess. We all (the boomers) got the best ride ever. It's trending down hill from here