[C8]

You're only considering surgical abortions.

Those days are long gone, except for rare cases with complications.

The abortion pill has been available in the USA for about 20 years.

This pill is available over the internet and this will safely and reliably produce an abortion in the vast majority of women.

The reality the pro-life movement will have to confront is that, due to pills and science, women can perform unlimited abortions. The USA is terrible at prohibition, we can't even stop meth, there is no way to stop this.

I have always felt the pro-life movement made a mistake by focusing on punishments instead of persuasion. The main focus should have been free birth control.

[Newfie]

I have always felt the pro-life movement made a mistake by focusing on punishments instead of persuasion.

Perhaps “education” but generally YES!

Same can be said of the abortion issue or gun contrrol.

[Plantagenet]

There is a reason they didn't have those rights before. Those rights are a consequence of the abundance of energy and other resources available, IMO. As resources become increasingly scarce so will rights, not just for women, but for everyone.

I respectfully disagree.

IMHO, You are far too pessimstic about human progress.


I'm afraid you've seen too many Mad Max movies.

Human rights and Women's rights are the product of a natural striving for justice and equality that exists in all people. The development of human rights is a long tradition in the west that goes back to the creation of Republics in ancient Greece and Rome. People in the west have been working to achieve personal rights and demanding their personal freedoms long before the use of fossil fuels.

Cheers!

[vtsnowedin]

They are as extreme on their side as the pro choicers on the other that want due date partial birth abortions legal.

....as though men should have any say in it at all....

Hopefully the country will come to something more sensible near the middle.

...and what might "the country" have to do with you managing your life and body, or woman managing hers?

At what point during a gestation does the fetus have the right to life?

[vtsnowedin]

The main focus should have been free birth control.

On that I agree with you but some of the extremist Pro-lifers want to ban all contraception and morning after pills.

[jato0072]

What the Constitution says is that the state cannot establish a state religion.

What if it is a godless religion?

WASHINGTON — A unanimous Supreme Court ruled Monday, May 2, that Boston violated the free speech rights of a conservative activist when the city refused his request to fly a Christian flag on a flagpole outside City Hall.

Justice Stephen Breyer wrote for the court that the city discriminated against the activist, Harold Shurtleff, because of his "religious viewpoint," even though it had routinely approved applications for the use of one of the three flagpoles outside City Hall that fly the U.S., Massachusetts and Boston flags.

Occasionally, the city takes down its own pennant and temporarily hoists another flag.

Maybe next month we can fly the Christian flag in place of the rainbow one.

[Newfie]

Ethical Humanism is a godless religion.

The Ethical movement, also referred to as the Ethical Culture movement, Ethical Humanism or simply Ethical Culture, is an ethical, educational, and religious movement that is usually traced back to Felix Adler (1851–1933).[2] Individual chapter organizations are generically referred to as "Ethical Societies", though their names may include "Ethical Society", "Ethical Culture Society", "Society for Ethical Culture", "Ethical Humanist Society", or other variations on the theme of "Ethical".

Ethical movement
Ethical Culture symbol.jpg
The Ethical Human logo of the Ethical Culture/Ethical Humanist movement, its most widely used symbol
Scripture
None
Headquarters
New York City
Founder
Felix Adler
Origin
1877
Congregations
about 30
Number of followers
Less than 10,000 (2014)[1]
Official website
www.aeu.org
The Ethical movement is an outgrowth of secular moral traditions in the 19th century, principally in Europe and the United States. While some in this movement went on to organize for a secular humanist movement, others attempted to build a secular moral movement that was emphatically "religious" in its approach to developing humanist ethical codes, in the sense of encouraging congregational structures and religious rites and practices. While in the United States, these movements formed as separate education organizations (the American Humanist Association and the American Ethical Union), the American Ethical Union's British equivalents, the South Place Ethical Society and the British Ethical Union consciously moved away from a congregational model to become Conway Hall and Humanists UK respectively. Subsequent "godless" congregational movements include the Sunday Assembly, whose London chapter has used Conway Hall as a venue since 2013.

From Wiki

Once again, IMHO the court should rule abortion is a matter of religious beliefs and therefore neither the Federal or States can rule on it

[vtsnowedin]

Once again, IMHO the court should rule abortion is a matter of religious beliefs and therefore neither the Federal or States can rule on it

Interesting position but has the unborn fetus had the opportunity to choose which religion they would like to adhere to?
The whole issue is full of thorny moral and ethical questions with few answers that all can agree to.

[AdamB]

At what point during a gestation does the fetus have the right to life?

Ask the woman bearing it. It isn't as though you or I know anything about having some creature come to life inside us with the potential to kill us when it forces its way out. Except in the movies.

[AdamB]

At what point during a gestation does the fetus have the right to life?

Whenever the mother says it does. There are large cultural, religious and tribal reactions that kick into action once the little monster begins caterwauling for food and drink and whatnot though.

[AdamB]

The whole issue is full of thorny moral and ethical questions with few answers that all can agree to.

Other than the idea that us males are in no position to tell a mother what, exactly, ought to happen to her fetus.

[careinke]

Once again, IMHO the court should rule abortion is a matter of religious beliefs and therefore neither the Federal or States can rule on it

I'd go for that, especially if religious hospitals could refuse to perform abortions. Still, I would mourn for all the unborn children murdered.

Peace

[careinke]

At what point during a gestation does the fetus have the right to life?

Whenever the mother says it does. There are large cultural, religious and tribal reactions that kick into action once the little monster begins caterwauling for food and drink and whatnot though.

I'm calling Bullshit. Case in point: My Senior Director during Desert Storm. She was an outstanding Captain, a Combat Officer and functioned as my right hand "Person."

Later she became pregnant, and was reassigned. At 8 months pregnant, she took a hose and ran it from her car exhaust into the back window while parked in her garage. Both her and her unborn son died.

Earlier she was happy and looking forward to the baby. Obviously an extreme hormone imbalance is the suspect cause. Still the loss of a wanted baby haunts me.

It leads me to wonder how many late term abortions may be caused by out of control hormone imbalances, or maybe even a fight with the father.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could all settle on when a fetus has rights as a sustainable human being. Maybe have special requirements for late term abortions like mandatory sterilization plus board approval.

Peace

[Newfie]

Once again, IMHO the court should rule abortion is a matter of religious beliefs and therefore neither the Federal or States can rule on it

Interesting position but has the unborn fetus had the opportunity to choose which religion they would like to adhere to?
The whole issue is full of thorny moral and ethical questions with few answers that all can agree to.

It is the religion of the Mother and what that allows, or doesn’t.

I agree we will never find agreement. So why try? It is in the realm of priests, mullahs, and other witch doctors.

That the politicians wade in tells you something about them.

[Newfie]

Carinke,

I have seen something of this in my personal life. A very different effect but a hormonal effect none the less.

Yet I think these kinds of things are very rare. And it is hard to see how any legislation would have positively effected that tragic story.

More to the point, I have never ever met or heard of a lady who gets pregnant just so she can have an abortion. There are a wide variety of measures to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. And many of those measures are common sense and may require but small compromise.

Yet few are working on the problem of unwanted pregnancies while untold hoards are screaming maniacally about their extreme position.

The problem is not abortion, or guns, or whatever. The problem is our human desire to have a good God damn roll in the mud fist fight, with teeth knocked out.

[AdamB]

It leads me to wonder how many late term abortions may be caused by out of control hormone imbalances, or maybe even a fight with the father.

It leads me to wonder about the state of mental health care in the military and America at large. And in no way does your story alter who has this alien invader growing within them, the changes it induces into their body and potentially their psyche, and that neither you, me, or any other man has any right to get involved unless we are talking about a male psychologist or therapist she chooses to see to help her work through her thoughts or feelings about her decision. A male getting involved that way would be okay. But all us guys deciding? Please....

Wouldn't it be nice if we could all settle on when a fetus has rights as a sustainable human being.

Sure. As long as women have a absolute veto over what a bunch of testosterone laden men have to think on the topic. As long as they all settle on how the process should work for them, that sounds like a reasonable solution to me. But it isn't bullshit to let the people who could get affected by it, are affected by it, and continued to be affected by it forever after be the ones doing the deciding.

[vtsnowedin]

Two more decisions released today. West Virginia wins vs the EPA and federal agencies can't just make up rules the congress has not authorized them to do.
The Biden administration wins in their effort to end Trumps stay in Mexico policy with the court saying it is within the duties and powers of the executive branch.
So the court as it now is configured does not just rubber stamp Republican policies but calls balls and strikes as they see them coming over the home plate of the constitution.

[C8]

It leads me to wonder how many late term abortions may be caused by out of control hormone imbalances, or maybe even a fight with the father.

It leads me to wonder about the state of mental health care in the military and America at large. And in no way does your story alter who has this alien invader growing within them, the changes it induces into their body and potentially their psyche, and that neither you, me, or any other man has any right to get involved unless we are talking about a male psychologist or therapist she chooses to see to help her work through her thoughts or feelings about her decision. A male getting involved that way would be okay. But all us guys deciding? Please....

Wouldn't it be nice if we could all settle on when a fetus has rights as a sustainable human being.

Sure. As long as women have a absolute veto over what a bunch of testosterone laden men have to think on the topic. As long as they all settle on how the process should work for them, that sounds like a reasonable solution to me. But it isn't bullshit to let the people who could get affected by it, are affected by it, and continued to be affected by it forever after be the ones doing the deciding.

So, you would be in favor of abortion all the way up to full term?

[jedrider]

Two more decisions released today. West Virginia wins vs the EPA and federal agencies can't just make up rules the congress has not authorized them to do.
The Biden administration wins in their effort to end Trumps stay in Mexico policy with the court saying it is within the duties and powers of the executive branch.
So the court as it now is configured does not just rubber stamp Republican policies but calls balls and strikes as they see them coming over the home plate of the constitution.

I'm glad we have much better referees in the National and American Leagues.

The Court is clearly political. Even the Biden win was a narrow one: Chief Justice John Roberts wrote for a 5-4 majority.

So, a Democratic President is just a figurehead. The agencies with expertise must await the decision from Congress before they can CHANGE anything, basically. Of course, we all know that Congress rarely decides anything.

[vtsnowedin]

So, a Democratic President is just a figurehead. The agencies with expertise must await the decision from Congress before they can CHANGE anything, basically. Of course, we all know that Congress rarely decides anything.

Perhaps now they will, with the ball in the middle of their court,have to clearly state what they mean and want to accomplish.
They have decided things all the time, just in ways that let members avoid blame when things turn against them.