[Ibon]

On the other thread I shared with you all how Shizo I feel between compassion and cold ecological calculations. This morning with no guests here I was packing coffee that we dried down to 11.5% and I suddenly had a deep insight that integrated these shizo feelings. Here goes.

What follows was partially inspired by the Daily podcast interviewing that head doctor of a 1000 bed hospital in Bergamo. His comments... "we cry everyday" was ringing in my ears since I listened to that. I hope all of you take the time to listen as well. Here is the link again for those of you who missed this.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/podc ... virus.html

So here is the solution to get through the deadly curve where doctors will practice triage in the days ahead in the US and other countries.

Everyone over 60 admitted to the hospital is given the opportuinity to sign a document where they agree to relinquish ventilators and time occupying an ICU if the doctors are forced to make room for younger patients. In this act of giving the aged will have the opportunity that instead of desparately clinging to life they can exit in an act of service to their fellow man.

Furthermore, they will be asked to name their favorite song. WHen the doctors determine during triage that there is no more ICU or ventilators available they will administer an initial dose of morphine to the patient. Enough to take away his pain but stilll being lucid. And they will put ear phones on his or her ears and their favorite song will be played. At the end of the song a stronger dose of morphine will be administered and recording of their family, their children and grand children will be played where they are saying... " we love you grandma, we love you grandpa..... Thank you for your sacrifice grandpa etc. etc.' With those final words the final dosage of morphine will be administered.

And so there is an opportunity for all the aged to make a noble sacrifice during these unprecedented times. To give. To serve. To sacrifice. To exit knowing that their final act is a giving act, not a desperate clinging to life using up desperately needed resources.

And so the generation that exits does so setting a deep deep example to the younger generation, a new meme of offering the ultimate sacrifice for strengthening the upcoming generation. This final act will be seen as a turning point where up until now generations were define by consumption and wanting and desiring it all to a final act of service and giving. It will be a meme that will set a template, a milestone for the upcoming sacrifices that will be coming this century calling on generations to give, serve and sacrifice to get through the bottle neck of human overshoot consequences.

Let's learn from Italy. The families in Italy are not allowed to visit their loved ones dying because of risk of spreading the virus.
So the recording we now can make to our dying parents and grandparents is their way to say farewell. Their way to honor their loved ones. Their way to thank them for their sacrifice

Following the crisis when things normalize during every base ball game, during every social event, a moment of silence or applause will be given to all the nurses and doctors who went way beyond the call of duty to sacrifice for society. They should be honored in every event possible. They will represent the new heroes of the day.

The aged exiting in this noble way will cut through much of the petty divisiveness, the political shit, and these noble acts of sacrifice by the elders will set a template of sacrifice that will even touch on our global politics, setting a precedent of sacrifice over consumption. And so we move into a new age of adaptation during the 21st century because all of you know deep down inside that this Corona virus is only one of many opening acts of events and consequences coming our way. The elders can exit with the ultimate act of service, setting a new standard of nobility and moving away from the mediocrity that has defined consumption culture.

So to all of you over 60 I ask..... What is your song?

Mine is All Along The Watchtower by Bob Dylan but the Jimi Hendrix version.

[Pops]

Who wants to live to 80 anyway?
"Everyone 79."
--Studs Terkel

[Pops]

Ibon, I've never understood the obsession here with mass death, in this case suicide.
Overpopulation is a result of greater knowledge that led to mortality falling faster than reproduction. Knowledge, educating girls particularly, is now causing a great decline in the birth rate because, surprise, they don't want to squirt out a dozen kids. This is the long term culture change you've been hunting.

The solution isn't to raise mortality, certainly not commit mass suicide. It's simply to teach the children - and learn from them.

So here you go.

Rephrased to "death" on second thought

[Ibon]

Ibon, I've never understood the obsession here with mass death, in this case suicide.

You missed the point. I am shocked that you did actually. This is not about suicide. Anything but.

Italy shows us we are heading for triage. Those doctors and nurses are heroes. We need more heroes, more mentors. More examples of virtue and bravery in these times of fear. We need the message of sacrifice above and beyond ones petty clinging to life.

So you have an 80 year old waking up with a dry cough in Seattle 2 weeks from now as he reads the morning paper that the local hospital has run out of ICU units. He declines quickly. The ambulance takes him to the hospital. He has lived a full life. He knows there are younger ones out there sick who can benefit from a ventilator. He knows that at his age he will be occupying that ventilator for an extended period of time. He is given a choice when he arrives at the hospital. SIgn the document or not.

And you call this suicide?

My god have we all become such fucking cowards here?

We are know longer Kudzu Ape. We are now Kudzu rabbits.... scared like prey over a microbe. Just running into our holes.

Suicide is the last thing I am promoting in this story.

I am trying to plant the seed of a new orientation. New mentorship around sacrifice and serving others.

Tell me what a moment of silence in the future honoring our doctors and nurses for their sacrifice has to do with suicide.

GEEZ guys, how many of you are shitting in your panties over whats going on now? Oh now I understand better the run on toilet paper in all the stores.. hahaha LOL.

Is that the example you want to be?

Shame on you!

[SeaGypsy]

I'm a bit young for this old person's thread, but I couldn't go past without leaving this:

https://youtu.be/ojrtwXqqc6g

Nobody wants to die, but we all will. Make the most of every day.

[SeaGypsy]

To your OP Ibon,

Of course it's disturbing, everyone is in some degree of shock. Shock at how suddenly this has brought not just our plans to dust, but at confronting our mortality outside of schedule-

Everyone is trying to be humane about this, nobody wants to be brutal except the weakest of all who are already pointing the blame, scapegoating, rearing up for the kill as instinctively as they always have.

I can't see the degree of either political or personal capitulation envisaged in your proposition Ibon. But a month ago I couldn't have seen our current government (conservative/ Australia) let alone American Republicans going hard core Keynesian, doling out billions in cash & fast tracking social security payments for all. Things can change, mighty fast.

There are far better exit drugs than morphine, nembutal is state of the art.

[Ibon]

I can't see the degree of either political or personal capitulation envisaged in your proposition Ibon. .

But I have seen it. I have lived in Panama, Thailand and like you in the Philippines. I have witnessed repeatedly in these countries examples of families who confront the dying of loved ones with a sense of courage regarding accepting death. There is no savings in families to pay for extended care. There is no infrastructure except for the extended family to care of the aged. And so many die when in the west they would have been kept alive in nursing homes for years. There is a humility and grace I have seen again and again simply because humility and grace is your only choice. The alternative in the west is the indulgence to put your aged loved ones in nursing homes and visit them once a month and fill them full of pills and drag on the inevitable for years and years resulting in tragic loneliness. For many this corona virus will be a blessing. Remember there is a saying. Flu is an old man's best friend.... In other words a comparitively painless way to exit. So in the west we have been able to indulge in the waste of incredible resources keeping our aged alive for many years but we have forsaken the far more energy efficient way of dealing with death which is what we can still see alive and well in many developing countries. That humility and grace and acceptance. That is no where to be seen at the moment especially in the United States of America.

I have been chatting with our staff here in these past days. This sort of philosophical resignation to what ever will come will come. Si me muero me muero.

This corona virus is revealing many things, and we can start with the culture's complete inexperience around dealing with death.

Newfie brought up in a recent post the amount of resources that are consumed keeping those 80 plus aged alive in hospitals and nursing homes. If we take serious in any way the topics we discuss here on po.com around constraints coming our way we have to confront our mortality in a whole new way, with more courage and dignity and also with a sense of sacrifice. That is the whole point.

The Corona virus is a great teacher and yet a relatively mild predator.

Worship the corona virus. Embrace the corona virus. Not because we encourage suicide or a death cult. But because we are in sore need of more humility and grace.

ANy doubt about that just look and the individuals we choose to lead our country ! haha

[Pops]

You missed the point. I am shocked that you did actually. This is not about suicide. Anything but.

You're right, what you describe is euthanasia.
OD grandma cuz she caught the bug.
She doesn't contribute anyway. But hey, it's OK cuz she got to pick her own song, how brave.

Everyone in the US has the option to complete a DNR.
Different than creating a death cult. All that's missing in your plan is an Overshoot Predator mask for the doctor to wear.

But like I said, that's been a subtext here since the start.

[Ibon]

You missed the point. I am shocked that you did actually. This is not about suicide. Anything but.

You're right, what you describe is euthanasia.
OD grandma cuz she caught the bug.
She doesn't contribute anyway. But hey, it's OK cuz she got to pick her own song, how brave.

Everyone in the US has the option to complete a DNR.
Different than creating a death cult. All that's missing in your plan is an Overshoot Predator mask for the doctor to wear.

But like I said, that's been a subtext here since the start.

Decadent entitlement means that not only Republicans like to whine about "Death Panels"
Liberals and progressives do it also!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahahahaha

[Ibon]

Hey, nobody has named their song..... come on gang, step up to the plate.

[rockdoc123]

CCR.....Bad Moon Rising

I see a bad moon a-rising
I see trouble on the way
I see earthquakes and lightnin'
I see bad times today
Don't go 'round tonight
It's bound to take your life
There's a bad moon on the rise

[SeaGypsy]

Hey, nobody has named their song..... come on gang, step up to the plate.

I did, it's My Corona Virus, in the link.

[Ibon]

But like I said, that's been a subtext here since the start.

You should listen to some of the entomologists who come up here to collect bugs. What we discuss here is mild in comparison. Lol.

Ornery old spam eating entomologists who have watched habitat destruction for 40 years are some of the worst misanthrops I have seen!

[Outcast_Searcher]

At 60 and 10 months, I'll play, since by the time I'm in that situation should it happen, I'll likely be 61 or older.

My song is "The Next Voice You Hear" by Jackson Browne.

First, it's a song about ethical behavior and standing up and doing the right thing, which is an appropriate theme, and I've always loved the lyrics and the dark, moody, appropriate sound of the song. The idea re the song is "The next voice you hear will be your own", i.e. you have to live with yourself.

The clincher line for me is: "Forget your Heroes. You don't really need those last few lessons." (Political corruption, business corruption, sports corruption like steroid cheating, etc).

....

Well, Ibon, I'll take the opposite of Pop's tack on this one and say I agree with your idea, in the situation you outline if it is likely (or, of course certain) that there won't be enough ventilators at the time and place it happens.

If an old person who has little chance wants to, why NOT let them OFFER to give a younger person a better chance, if push comes to shove?

I've already had thoughts along this line, given the choice. I suspect he'll change his mind, but one of my best friends, 75, in poor health says if he gets sick he's just going to self isolate and if he dies, he dies. And he doesn't plan to go to a hospital. Calling in my city just gets you a self-quarantine order until LOTS more test kits arrive anyway (per official notification from my large family practice provider) . He's a smoker and in bad physical shape and doesn't like to be messed with at ALL, so I understand and respect his decision.

Also, ironically, this reminds me of what I thought was the good part of Soylent Green -- the part most thought was so horrible. To me, their policy of letting people (generally the old, infirm, no longer employable) choose to exit the sh*thole that earth had become to leave in comfort by going to sleep while watching a beautiful movie of the natural wonders earth USED to have.

At the risk of upsetting Pops further, I'd like to have this "be gently put to sleep" option when the time comes, no matter WHAT the cause and the current medical supply situation and I'd like EVERYONE to have that option who has a terminal disease and is suffering significantly. And I'd like it to be an option that society is OK with as a valid personal choice. Dying like that sure beats dying in pain, panic, likely struggling to breathe, etc. the way many unsedated patients go sounds like a dignified choice humans should have. Just like any responsible person would do for their beloved house pet, which can't be saved.

Maybe for me, it comes from staring at a duo or perhaps trio of cancers, bearing down on me for years, like a slow, inexorable train, as doctors and I watch the progress of blood test results. For me, it makes one think about possible alternatives. At least the likely two are both very slow. But for prostate cancer, for example, given how poorly it's treated, how much the treatments tend to screw up the patient's life, and how expensive (re the bills which SOMEONE in society pays) it is to treat, LITTLE WONDER modern medical protocol is to not even bother to TEST for it anymore for as a general rule (but my doctor wants to and I don't want to fight with him yet). To me, the lack of dignity is more in running around like your hair is on fire, at great cost in suffering and money, when it does little to no good, ESPECIALLY when the patient is against that. And forcing the patient to endure the end, and society to PAY for that is madness squared.

[Pops]

When I developed diabetes in '09 my income was about nil and so I'd let my insurance lapse. Because of the weight loss I feared cancer and I assumed that once in the hospital it would have cost us everything, my wife would have had nothing.
I didn't go to the hospital until unable to refuse, I was carried out.

So on the scale of how cool you are online (or misantropic, self-sacrificing, coldly logical, whatever), I kinda think I have nothing to prove.

In this case, I have the often mentioned underlying disease (though my heart appears fine at this point) but was a smoker for many years. Basically I made my choice long ago and my DNR is signed and dated, also long ago.

My objection is not to elective suicide for whatever reason but to fantasizing some societal leap into the voodoo Overshoot Predator cult as a solution to whatever ills one sees.

[Outcast_Searcher]

My objection is not to elective suicide for whatever reason but to fantasizing some societal leap into the voodoo Overshoot Predator cult as a solution to whatever ills one sees.

Ah. Well of course, that's something completely different.

And I hope the LAST thing a (what should be) serious discussion like this at a gravely serious time, is, is about appearing "cool" online.

Agree or disagree with people's opinions, thus far on this thread at least, I think we're generally seeing sincerity.

[Ibon]

My objection is not to elective suicide for whatever reason but to fantasizing some societal leap into the voodoo Overshoot Predator cult as a solution to whatever ills one sees.

I think you were projecting a bit this complaint on to my opening post which was a lot more about sacrifice, service and giving than it was glorifying the corona virus as an agent of the overshoot predator. Even the choice to allow a younger person to live and sacrifice for a future generation was solely under the context of a triage situation.

I just see the baby boomers at the very end of their life stepping up to the plate and demonstrating sacrifice, service and the ultimate act of giving as a contrast to the self centered and self indulgent legacy they have demonstrated to date as a possible redemption of sorts. But more importantly, setting a new template and new meme.

After all, the current dominant meme at the moment projected by our current fearless leader is that greed is good, gaming the system is good, and that consumption still remains the birthright of all Americans.

We need new mentors and really, the hardships of this century call forth sacrifice and service over any message of opulence.

We are all old baby boomers, but I believe that I am tapping into something here that the following generations are hungry for.

The meme of consumption and having it all is getting really tired and old.