[theluckycountry]

I was going to post a quote from the WEF and relate it to the solution of the limits to growth dilemma, but then I realized this is a political thread. I'll save it for elsewhere.

[Newfie]

We have a LTG thread.

[Outcast_Searcher]

It is time to look at the difference between what the Democrats say they will do and the actual results.
Bernie and the rest of the progressives say they want to improve things for the 'little guy' and create equal opportunity for all.
In ten months they have delivered a dollar a gallon increase in gas and fuel oil prices along with increased food and rent prices and an overall inflation that exceeds the more modest increase in wages.
They have flooded the country with hundreds of thousands of 'undocumented' (ie. illegal) immigrants that are un-vaccinated and have a ten percent positive covid-19 rate and paid to have them flown all over the country in what can be described as the biggest super spreader event ever.
Mixed in with these 'refugees' are a percentage of MS-13 gang members and others that are bringing in fentanyl by the ton and have caused over 100,000 overdose deaths this year along with increased crime rates nationwide.
Then we have the disastrous retreat from Afghanistan making decades of sacrifices made by the 'little guys' sons and daughters a complete waste, and doing so in a way that has destroyed the USA's credibility worldwide increasing the likelihood of aggressive actions by China and Russia with no plan or policy in place to check them.
Then we Have Joe Biden that promised no increase in taxes for anyone making $400k or less and would get the rich to "Pay their fair share".
Is a dollar paid in taxes a different color then a dollar paid at the gas pump or the grocery store?
And now the bill passed in the house last night raised the deduction from $10,000 dollars to $80,000 giving all those 'rich' people an average $50,000 tax cut while giving nothing to those making a low enough salary to not owe more then $10,000 in State and local taxes.
What is "fair" about that.
A couple more years of the Democrats 'Helping out the little guy' and they will all be homeless or under Chinese rule.

As a moderate, I'll just say that I think BOTH sides tend to blame the other side quickly for everything, including things that aren't their fault, especially in the short run.

I absolutely agree about the SALT tax deduction going from $10K to $80K being absolutely outrageous. I don't think we should raise them at all, but they want to have more of a deduction for the upper middle class, then even in expensive cities, a $20K limit would make a LOT more sense than an $80K limit. NO ONE is FORCING people to live in mansions, etc. That high limit is mostly protecting the 1%.

I also agree about the $400K line for raising taxes. Something more like $100K as upper middle class would make far more sense for where to draw the line.
As it is, the bottom 50% only pay about TWO percent of the entire income tax burden. And the $100K limit wouldn't come near to touching that. But if you can't make it on $400K, then LIVE DIFFERENTLY, or LIVE SOMEWHERE CHEAPER for crying out loud.

WE NEED more revenue, given all the services voters want. If they WANT the services, then ALL the upper middle income folks, and part of the middle class, actually, should help PAY for such services. Money doesn't grow on trees, no matter how many times liberals like to pretend it does, re social programs.

And I also agree that the term "fair" is entirely inappropriate for such decisions. "Fair" is mostly childish whining to try and push one's agenda, not a word for adults to try to objectively describe anything of substance. I grind my teeth every time I read or see that from the left as a justification to raise taxes on the most productive people in the US.

I agree on the undocumented immigrants problem, BUT, given that the GOP and its backers are completely against any kind of workable scheme to ensure workers have VALID ID's for US jobs, bank accounts, etc. -- they're NOT helping solve the problem either -- just yelling about it. So both sides own that one, even though they talk about it differently to try to buy votes on their side.

The pandemic and the distortions it caused re the economy isn't anyone's fault. Remember, that started under Trump, and the tone and substance for throwing money at it was geared up under Trump. So the inflation is BOTH sides' fault, and may be mostly unavoidable, given the random nature of pandemics, re timing. (We likely NEED to overspend during some economic emergencies which is why a balanced budget, or preferably a surplus SHOULD be REQUIRED when there isn't such an emergency (i.e. in all relatively "normal" economic years).

Also, how is a change in short term oil prices the Dem's fault? Long term, if they suppress drilling, etc, they own much of that. But short term, prices rose significantly in 2020 under Trump, and there hasn't been enough time for meaningful policy to have a big impact on what OPEC can charge or when producers decide to go full steam ahead again (and mainly, they're waiting on even higher prices). And BTW, I give Biden -10,000 points for whining to the Saudis about oil prices, as though that is acceptable or means anything. That's pure D vote buying propaganda, and I HATE behavior like that (and both sides engage in it over time).

Oh, and I hate Bernie, Warren, AOC, and that whole far left clown-fest, as far as their ECONOMIC policies, generally. Whining and screeching isn't the way to make policy (though, again, it seems to buy plenty of votes, over time).

And finally, the Afghanistan mess. Well, that was caused by the GOP, pushing for the wars, and refusing to ever stop, and wasting $trillions along the way. So we were supposed to just NEVER get out, no matter what? So you LIKE huge government spending? To me, the fact that it went bad so quickly is primarily a sign of HOW FOOLISH it was to ever be over there in the first place. WTH do we pay the CIA, military intelligence, etc. so much for, when what they produce over time is so pitifully inaccurate, re predictions the military relies on?

And finally, complaining about anything related to the dems re Covid-19 is pretty amusing, given what Trump did overall re that problem, and how the GOP has generally been the heart of bad behavior, science denial, and helping make the problem worse for the US.

(And again, I'm against the toleration of so many illegal / undocumented workers, and the dems' tolerance of all the economic problems they cause. I don't give a damn about what people look like, but just blatantly ignoring set of laws X because you don't like them is COMPLETELY unacceptable -- from either party). Unless, of course, what you want is lots of scofflaws for citizens, which far too many police and politicians already set HORRIBLE examples for -- and we should be jailing THEM instead of people with, say, a small amount of weed.)

[vtsnowedin]

I also agree about the $400K line for raising taxes. Something more like $100K as upper middle class would make far more sense for where to draw the line.
As it is, the bottom 50% only pay about TWO percent of the entire income tax burden. And the $100K limit wouldn't come near to touching that. But if you can't make it on $400K, then LIVE DIFFERENTLY, or LIVE SOMEWHERE CHEAPER for crying out loud.

How about not raising taxes at all and cutting spending to meet the record inflows that are coming in.

And finally, the Afghanistan mess. Well, that was caused by the GOP, pushing for the wars, and refusing to ever stop, and wasting $trillions along the way. So we were supposed to just NEVER get out, no matter what? So you LIKE huge government spending? To me, the fact that it went bad so quickly is primarily a sign of HOW FOOLISH it was to ever be over there in the first place. WTH do we pay the CIA, military intelligence, etc. so much for, when what they produce over time is so pitifully inaccurate, re predictions the military relies on?

Wanting to get out of Afghanistan was pretty much universal. It was the disastrous execution of it that was the problem. They could have withdrawn in good order province by province taking all their equipment and allies with them. And don't say Biden was bound by any timeline or rules negotiated by Trump as Biden has had no problem undoing anything Trump put in place working or not.

[yellowcanoe]

How about not raising taxes at all and cutting spending to meet the record inflows that are coming in.

The US is in too deep a hole financially to be able to manage only by cutting spending. Sure, I see politicians in Canada claim they can balance the budget without raising taxes. Of course the balancing will only come after several decades and requires that during that time period economic growth will retain robust, and there won't be any big financial crisis, natural disasters, pandemics or wars. Highly unlikely in any case.

[Plantagenet]

Liberals Ds in Portland are rioting for a second night, smashing windows in government businesses and stores in the downtown area.

rittenhouse-acquitted-all-charges-angry-Biden-democrats-riot

Joe-the-senile-fool-Biden apparently set off the rioting by proclaiming he was "angry" over the Kyle Rittenhouse verdict. The President of the United States attempted to undermine Rittenhouse's right to a fair trial before the trial by smearing him as a "white supremacist." Now that the trial is over and the Jury didn't buy Biden's lies, Biden is now trying to undermine the validity of the US justice system by not accepting the verdict and accepting that Rittenhouse is innocent because the jury found that he killed those two left wing thugs who were attacking him in order to defend himself.

And now other "progressive" Ds are taking their cue from Biden and showing they are angry too....by rioting and destroying government property and stoning the police and generally being total jerks.


Joe Biden and his friends in antifa are both "angry" about the Kyle Rittenhouse verdict. So much for showing respect for the rule of law.......

SHEEESH!

[vtsnowedin]

Yellow canoe"

The US is in too deep a hole financially to be able to manage only by cutting spending. Sure, I see politicians in Canada claim they can balance the budget without raising taxes. Of course the balancing will only come after several decades and requires that during that time period economic growth will retain robust, and there won't be any big financial crisis, natural disasters, pandemics or wars. Highly unlikely in any case.

The rule is: When you find yourself in a deep hole the first thing to do is STOP DIGGING!
Now you are probably right that some tax increases (or inflation) will be needed to cover our current debts and obligations but adding on trillions more of wasteful spending will only make that problem much worse.
I did take heart when Biden actually got something right by announcing the appointment of two new Postal governing board members, paving the way to replacing the ridiculous current Postmaster General.

[Plantagenet]

Biden just announced his big plan to reduce the price of gasoline......release oil from the strategic petroleum reserve (SPR).

Biden is apparently going to ignore the fact that the law stipulates that the SPR is to be used only in case of emergency like a war or a boycott that creates an actual oil shortage.

Apparently all he cares about is making sure people have cheap gasoline.

And then, after making the announcement two crazy things happened.

(1) Joe Biden fled the stage, demonstrating again that he is too cowardly to even answers questions from the largely D White House press corps

and

(2) The price of oil and gasoline went UP!

Joe biden is such a clown.....he just broke the law to try to manipulate the oil markets to keep cheap gasoline cheap....and it didn't even work.

SHEESH!

[yellowcanoe]

Biden just announced his big plan to reduce the price of gasoline......release oil from the strategic petroleum reserve (SPR). didn't even work.

SHEESH!

Maybe he should reconsider his decision to cancel the Keystone XL pipeline!

[Outcast_Searcher]

I also agree about the $400K line for raising taxes. Something more like $100K as upper middle class would make far more sense for where to draw the line.
As it is, the bottom 50% only pay about TWO percent of the entire income tax burden. And the $100K limit wouldn't come near to touching that. But if you can't make it on $400K, then LIVE DIFFERENTLY, or LIVE SOMEWHERE CHEAPER for crying out loud.

How about not raising taxes at all and cutting spending to meet the record inflows that are coming in.

Well, gee, that sounds easy and magical.

But in the real world a huge proportion of the voters on BOTH sides of the aisle want to strongly SUPPORT the current programs, and be advocates for more. And that, in total, makes a LARGE proportion of the voting public.

Now, hey, if you can get a large proportion of BOTH SIDES of the aisle to be willing to give up short term program desires (like the military and social programs) in favor of LESS spending (like me), I'm all for it.

But in the real world, that doesn't seem to happen. Try to cut either the military or social programs, and one side goes bananas. Try to raise taxes to pay for things, and to some extent, both sides go bananas (the liberals only support taxing "the rich" vs "the people who support more spending in large numbers").

And if you think in the US system, lots of politicians will truly abandon their career, success, and re-election for "ideals", good luck with that. In my experience, that doesn't happen much, regardless of which side's (empty) rhetoric you favor.

[Newfie]

That points to a couple of problems.

Politician as career. Term limits as a start.

But, as time goes on I am becoming less convinced that democracy is a viable management method. I have no better alternatives, yet anyway.

The USA had a good run under the founding principals. But they seem to have been abandoned or largely ignored.

Peak oil wont take us down, our own hubris will do it first.

[vtsnowedin]

Now, hey, if you can get a large proportion of BOTH SIDES of the aisle to be willing to give up short term program desires (like the military and social programs) in favor of LESS spending (like me), I'm all for it.

The military and most social programs are not 'Short term" programs and the military must as always be maintained at a level to insure our success against all antagonists.
If we fail in that no other program matters one wit.

[Outcast_Searcher]

And finally, the Afghanistan mess. Well, that was caused by the GOP, pushing for the wars, and refusing to ever stop, and wasting $trillions along the way. So we were supposed to just NEVER get out, no matter what? So you LIKE huge government spending? To me, the fact that it went bad so quickly is primarily a sign of HOW FOOLISH it was to ever be over there in the first place. WTH do we pay the CIA, military intelligence, etc. so much for, when what they produce over time is so pitifully inaccurate, re predictions the military relies on?

Wanting to get out of Afghanistan was pretty much universal. It was the disastrous execution of it that was the problem. They could have withdrawn in good order province by province taking all their equipment and allies with them. And don't say Biden was bound by any timeline or rules negotiated by Trump as Biden has had no problem undoing anything Trump put in place working or not.

You're ignoring the main issue, which is that the GOP got us into that mess and pushed to keep us in that mess for nearly 20 years.

Getting out caused the bad guys to take over almost right away. Timing that a little differently or organizing it a little differently wouldn't have changed the basic outcome. Once the power vacuum was there, the Taliban seized control.

Total epic FAIL of the whole thing. Blaming the whole thing on Biden might be good political sport, but that's clearly ridiculous.

[vtsnowedin]

Wanting to get out of Afghanistan was pretty much universal. It was the disastrous execution of it that was the problem. They could have withdrawn in good order province by province taking all their equipment and allies with them. And don't say Biden was bound by any timeline or rules negotiated by Trump as Biden has had no problem undoing anything Trump put in place working or not.

You're ignoring the main issue, which is that the GOP got us into that mess and pushed to keep us in that mess for nearly 20 years.

So now the GOP is the cause of planes flying into the trade centers and Pentagon?

Getting out caused the bad guys to take over almost right away. Timing that a little differently or organizing it a little differently wouldn't have changed the basic outcome. Once the power vacuum was there, the Taliban seized control.

Total epic FAIL of the whole thing. Blaming the whole thing on Biden might be good political sport, but that's clearly ridiculous.

An orderly withdrawal would not be just "timing it a bit differently" or a small change in it's organization. A lot of our allies and their families are now dead or soon will be due to Biden's incompetence.

[Newfie]

This is an example of where I see little difference between R and D. They collaborated to get us in and keep us in. Trump did a hood thing to work towards getting out. Biden did a good thing by getting us out, but he did it in a damn stupid manner.

[Plantagenet]

... the Afghanistan mess. Well, that was caused by the GOP.....

Its not that simple. The history of US involvement in Afghanistan is more complicated than you remember.

It's true that Bush invaded Afghanistan to take down Al Qaida after they attacked the World Trade Center. As far as I'm concerned that was perfectly justified. It was an act of war for Al Qaida to attack the US, and the US had every right and indeed an obligation to wage war in return on Al Qaida, and on their state sponsors the Taliban.

The Bush war in Afghanistan was was highly successful.....the US sent in a very small force of special forces and they were able to cooperate with Afghan resistance fighters to topple the Taliban and destroy the Al Qaida bases and training centers in Afghanistan. There were very few US casualties, and relatively few US troops were involved. After the war the US kept a limited force mainly based in Kabul.

It wasn't until Obama was elected President that things really went to hell. Obama believed that Afghanistan was "the good war" so Obama surged hundreds of thousands of US troops into rural areas of Afghanistan in an attempt to completely pacify the country. It was under Obama that the US sustained thousands of casualties in Afghanistan, and it was under Obama that the US began to spend billions and ultimately trillions of dollars trying to build infrastructure throughout Afghanistan.

Trump, in his turn, committed himself to ending the war and bringing the US troops that Obama had sent into Afghanistan back home, but when the Taliban broke a peace deal they had made with him he bombed the crap out of them until they agreed to go back to the negotiating table and stop attacking US troops. This delayed the US withdrawal into 2021, when Biden took over and promptly screwed things up.

Biden, of course, bungled the withdrawal. He stupidly began his withdrawal by giving up the Ghawar airforce base, which directly led to US forces and civilians stranded at the Kabul airport which was impossible to defend. .... Biden also made a big mistake when he announced he would pull all US troops out in two weeks. Big mistake.....the US military and US people in Afghanistan tried to get Biden to stop his stupid plan but he wouldn't do it. Any sensible person knows first you pull out the civilians while the military infrastrure is in place so you can get them out safely AND ONLY THEN do you pull out the military but Biden didn't understand that. And unlike Trump, when the Taliban broke the peace deal Biden did nothing. Biden totally bungled it, and bungled it badly. And then Biden lied and lied about it.....he claimed the Afghan Govemrnment wouldn't fall---but it did. Biden declared Kabul wouldn't fall and US people wouldn't need to be be evacuated by helicopter----but Kabul quickly fell and US civilians were desperate to be evacuated. And then Biden declared he could do anti-terrorism from "over-the-horizon"...and promptly blew up a large innocent family who were friendly to the west. Biden bungled everything about the withdrawal..... But then he bungles everything, doesn't he?


It was Obama who stupidly called Aghanistan "the good war" and then decided to spend hundreds of billions and surge hundreds of thousands of US troops into the country, resulting in a massive increase in the number of US casualties between 2008-16. You can see the "obama effect" clearly on a graph showing the year-by-year numbers for US fatalities in Afghanistan

SHEESH!

[Revi]

I think the Build Back Better is pretty much dead. I like the 66 billion that is being used for trains in the infrastructure plan. Otherwise, I think they're trying to hold up the present economy be spending lots of money, which is a fun notion. Joe Manchin isn't gonna vote for anything that might imperil the coal industry. It would be nice if we had someone who understands the problems we are facing running things. Maybe promote backyard gardens, a raise in the minimum wage, health care. Get people out of cars and onto busses and trains again. Maybe I'm just hoping that we can figure out a way to come down gradually, like Sully Sullenberger on the Hudson. I'm glad I'm not in charge of this mess.

[Newfie]

Revi,

The Wife and I had a similar discussion yesterday. For my part there may have been good bits in BBB but it was all mixed up in one big stew. Thats a good way to hide some stuff.

I would like to see it broken up into logical components and then put up for discussion, the the bits stand or fall in their own merit. The way it was was just a massive bamboozle.

Munchin and I would disagree in many points but I think he did a very good thing.

[Revi]

Revi,

The Wife and I had a similar discussion yesterday. For my part there may have been good bits in BBB but it was all mixed up in one big stew. Thats a good way to hide some stuff.

I would like to see it broken up into logical components and then put up for discussion, the the bits stand or fall in their own merit. The way it was was just a massive bamboozle.

Munchin and I would disagree in many points but I think he did a very good thing.

I think it was a way to hold up the economy for a little while longer, but it's not going to pass, so we'll fall back down again. It was just kicking the can down the road a bit.

[Newfie]

An interesting story about corrections officers in Philadelphia. A solid D one-party city since 1952.

I have a elsewhere here reported that a fair percentage, near half anyway, of the murders in Philly appear to be simple executions. It strikes me that the city government has become irrelevant for portions of the population. Gangs are ruling with their own “justice” system.

Public education is on about a similar level, it sure seems the charter schools are doing a lot better than public schools. Its just another form of segregation; the kids who have a functioning adult advocate can escape the public school system or use its good institutions. Those who can’t fall into the abyss.

The jails have lost about 500 corrections staff during the pandemic, according to the city’s publicly posted payroll records. In that same time period, only 143 new recruits were added, lawyers for the city said in recent court filings.

In June, City Controller Rebecca Rhynhart raised an alarm when the jails were 382 workers short, “a tipping point” she said required urgent attention. Now, according to Rhynhart’s office, the shortfall has grown to 582 staffers, putting the jails 31% below the city-approved deployment plan.

One of my kids is a CO in a different state. He reports personnel shortages but not this bad.