[Newfie]

If a country has the military wherewithal and the will, you can secure a border. We aren't there yet, but its coming.

Trump is apparently sending a large military contingent to the border. Things could get out of hand.

I think that unlikely. They have no mandate toward violence. I can see them in supporting roles to being order out of chaos.

It’s being spub differently to dissuade the caravan and throw red meat to the loyalist.

[onlooker]

Yes, Newf, but what if a sizable group defies the border and orders from the military and makes a mad dash into the US? Remember, some of these people are truly desperate and would risk it all to find sanctuary

[Tanada]

If a country has the military wherewithal and the will, you can secure a border. We aren't there yet, but its coming.

Trump is apparently sending a large military contingent to the border. Things could get out of hand.

Closing the border does not 'put things out of hand' it restores the border to what it is meant to be. Come in legally through a port of entry.

If trump were really 'out of hand' the solution would be to target the capital cities of the countries the immigrants are fleeing and tell TPTB they will personally die if any more 'refugees' are allowed to migrate to the USA. The USSR/Warsaw Pact and PRC/North Korea proved for generations that a government can keep people from leaving and causing trouble elsewhere. It is a matter of will.

[GHung]

Newf; "to being (bring?) order out of chaos." .....

What chaos? And I suppose ICE's $18 billion budget won't cover things, eh? But let's fall for the idiotic ploys to make all Americans afraid of those awful brown people.

The invasion is coming for you, Newfie!

[onlooker]

"Blowback", is a term I have heared used among Geopolitical experts. It is used to mean that certain policies taken by a country can have consequences that rebound upon said country. In this case the US has meddled in the affairs of Central and South America, to make that region cooperate with the interests of the US and other rich countries. Thus, governments have been installed friendly to the US but oppressive to their own people and harmful to the social and economic standing of the native populations. And so, now they are out of desperation deciding to come to the US, where they still believe , they can create for themselves a decent life in a relatively stable country. And desperate people can do desperate things ie. defy a military force. Then what?

[Newfie]

Yes, Newf, but what if a sizable group defies the border and orders from the military and makes a mad dash into the US? Remember, some of these people are truly desperate and would risk it all to find sanctuary

Then they will overwhelm the border patrol which will then get a HUGE budget boost and become a defect border military.

[Newfie]

Newf; "to being (bring?) order out of chaos." .....

What chaos? And I suppose ICE's $18 billion budget won't cover things, eh? But let's fall for the idiotic ploys to make all Americans afraid of those awful brown people.

The invasion is coming for you, Newfie!

The chaos that ensues when 4,000 people crash your party. They will need tent cities, sanitation, health care, feeding, clothing and a lot of other stuff the military is adept at that ICE is not.

It’s called planning to take care of folks with the best resource available.

Your paranoid scarcasim is out of place.

[Newfie]

History and guilt aside we need to turn to the future and decide how to manage our country.

No intelligent conversation about immigration can start until you have decided upon what population level you wish to arrive at in the home country.

Let’s say for sake of argument for the USA it is 350 million, a bit above now. We would argue for something far less but I’ll put that aside for this argument. Withonut setting on some number (350) then you are essentially saying our population can grow infinetly, which is silly and stupid.

Once you have the number then you can as “How soon do we reach that number?” And “What do we do when we hit that number?”

If our population is falling and we want to increase it then we want to ask “How do we increase the population? Encourage more births? Encourage immigration? If so who do we want to let in?”

But we haven’t answered the first question, Hell we haven’t even put it on the table to be answered, so yeah, for now I say we stop immigration until we ask the inteiilegent planning questions and come up with a way forward.

[Ibon]

Newf; "to being (bring?) order out of chaos." .....

What chaos? And I suppose ICE's $18 billion budget won't cover things, eh? But let's fall for the idiotic ploys to make all Americans afraid of those awful brown people.

The invasion is coming for you, Newfie!

The chaos that ensues when 4,000 people crash your party. They will need tent cities, sanitation, health care, feeding, clothing and a lot of other stuff the military is adept at that ICE is not.

It’s called planning to take care of folks with the best resource available.

Your paranoid scarcasim is out of place.

Maybe not. After all, your average American doesn't know about human overshoot. This is for me also nothing more than as Ghung states, a racist ploy to make Americans afraid of brown people.

In the last century we did this with the Irish, the italians, the chinese, the japanese. Our history is riddled with scapegoating immigrants. It's not just color racism. Isn't this all just another round of the same thing?

You can't tell me that the current immigrant bashing is based on ecological concerns. It's fear mongering plain and simple and baiting people to their lowest primitive instincts to get votes.

[Cog]

A country with open borders will cease to exist. That point is being made repeatedly. Its not racism, its self-protection. We have a process to legally immigrate to this country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrati ... ted_States

Since 2000, legal immigrants to the United States number approximately 1,000,000 per year, of whom about 600,000 are Change of Status who already are in the U.S.

[GHung]

Meh,,, Newfie tends to be a bit binary at times. If I don't agree with Trump's border policies I must be for allowing unrestricted access for immigrants into our country. As he says; "paranoid". Nothing could be farther from the truth. As Ibon says, I see it as a silly pre-election ploy of more scapegoating of immigrants. After all, we need someone to blame for things that we invent to instill fear so people will vote for those who will protect us from imaginary boogeymen while not questioning their policies.

I AM concerned about an administration who clearly finds our Constitutional limits quite inconvenient, if not a downright pain in the ass. When I was in the military I would have resented being deployed on our own soil when there was not a clear and present danger to the Nation (especially considering Posse Comitatus clauses in the Constitution). Unlike some here seem to be, I'm not a scared old white guy who thinks a few thousand mostly women and children seeking a better life (survival?) in a new country as a clear and present danger to the country I swore to protect.

Our military has other duties and mandates that don't include playing into some madman's political agenda here at home. Nothing you can say will change my mind on that. Many prominent military folks feel the same way. I just thank my lucky stars that I didn't have to serve while this fool is Commander-in-Chief.

[Newfie]

So Ibon and Ghung,

What, in your opinion, is the correct population of the USA? What should it be?

BTW I agree that this is being spun in a bunch of different ways by both parties for their own ends. The poor immigrants are just pawns in the palace intrigues.

That’s why I take this different approach, something that actually makes anmodicum of sense as aoooosed to emotional over reaction by the parties.

It helps to get some logical perspective on things.

Also, this discussion more properly belongs in the immigration thread. I just bumped that thread. It’s a little hard for me to move posts on an iPhone. I’ll try if Tanada doesn’t pick it up first.

[Newfie]

I’m. Punching thisnthread because we are having various discussion, off topic, about immigration on other threads

[Cog]

Posse Comitatus does not apply when your country is being invaded. We have a group of people who have vowed to breach the border, carrying their countries flag, and break US law. None of them are American citizens. Democrats, I suppose, suggest we should just use harsh language or just open up the border and invite them in for cookies. Defending the country against invasion is the express purpose of the military.

From the US Constitution:

Article 4, Section 4

The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on application of the legislature, or of the executive (when the legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence.

[GHung]

Posse Comitatus does not apply when your country is being invaded. We have a group of people who have vowed to breach the border, carrying their countries flag, and break US law. None of them are American citizens. Democrats, I suppose, suggest we should just use harsh language or just open up the border and invite them in for cookies. Defending the country against invasion is the express purpose of the military.

From the US Constitution:

Article 4, Section 4

The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on application of the legislature, or of the executive (when the legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence.

As I said; scared old white men.

[jedrider]

The Atlantic - My Debate With Steve Bannon
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/bannon-frum-munk-debate-what-really-happened/574867/

I hoped to speak, first, to the small numbers of the genuinely undecided, to those who might imagine that populism offers them something. This is not true. The new populist politics is a scam and a lie that exploits anger and fear to gain power. It has no care for the people it supposedly champions and no respect for them. It will deliver nothing—not only because its leaders are almost invariably crooks (although they are), but because they have no plans and no plans to make plans.

Just to get this issue over with. The Hondurans appearing to arrive at our borders are probably the first climate refugees in this hemisphere. They will increase. We will have to decide how to deal with them. Now refer to the paragraph above

[careinke]

So I will stick with my original position. It seems remarkably similar to Trumps position, but my conclusion was made pre Trump. I did know about his suggestion that if companies hired Tech people because they could not find citizens qualified to do the job, they should pay them twice the going US rate.

Time for an honest assessment, do you favor open borders with no checks of any kind, or do you desire some level of regulation determining who is 'legal' and who is 'illegal' as an immigrant?

Hmmm.... As an American Citizen, do I have the right to take up residency in another country of my own choosing? Do I have a right to work there, go to the state schools, accept social services, vote?

Just for arguments sake lets say I wanted to go live in Japan and become Japanese. Should Japan be required to accept me? What if the Big One hit the Puget sound, and I became a refugee, should Japan then have to accept me? What if I just snuck in without permission? Should they be allowed to deport me if I'm caught, or give me amnesty?

What if the country of Japan had immigration laws in place that certain cities like Akita, Kobe and Kyoto chose to flagrantly disregard and called themselves sanctuary cities so I would know where to go?

Sounds rather improbable, doesn't it? Yet this seems to be the lefts position on immigration. The fatal flaw in this thinking is you end up with no countries, and in a best case scenario a fascist world. Nations are supposed to be sovereign, and you can't be sovereign without control of your boarders.

I feel all nations should tighten their boarders against illegal immigration, although of course I'm mostly concerned with the U.S. The U.S. should base their immigration on needs of the nation, not the needs of the foreign immigrant. Citizen verification should be done on all convicted criminals, and after serving time they should be deported. Changing the tax laws to a consumption tax (Like the Fair Tax), with the pre-bates only going to citizens, would also discourage illegal immigration.

Frankly, we need to move away from a global system. People need to use the resources available to them in their local area, and not move across the globe like swarming locust.

[GHung]

" They will increase. We will have to decide how to deal with them."

There is no "we", and there will be no 'dealing' in any meaningful way. Societies can play whack-a-mole with history, but history has its way, always.

You don't have to like it.

[jedrider]

" They will increase. We will have to decide how to deal with them."

There is no "we", and there will be no 'dealing' in any meaningful way. Societies can play whack-a-mole with history, but history has its way, always.

You don't have to like it.

?? I didn't say whether I liked it or not. What I am suppose to like or dislike, though, I'm not sure? ??

If it becomes a 'dilemma' I suppose, and no one likes a dilemma, 'we' will be quite ineffective. However, we still 'deal' with it, one way or another, even if powerless.

[KaiserJeep]

So I will stick with my original position. It seems remarkably similar to Trumps position, but my conclusion was made pre Trump. I did know about his suggestion that if companies hired Tech people because they could not find citizens qualified to do the job, they should pay them twice the going US rate.

That's not how it works here in the Silly Valley.

Companies lobby for more H1B visas so they can hire cheaper labor than US citizens. Then these folks come here, live six people per pricey Silly Valley bedroom, real estate being so costly, and yet they STILL end up with better overall living conditions than in most countries, but we end up with many senior US citizens (like me for example) unemployed or retired early.

YES, it does happen. Look, it was not a tragedy for me to retire two years early with a big bonus and two years medical coverage. It was a tragedy the first such layoff when one of my peers (and the oldest group member) was laid off at age 58. He never worked again.