[Newfie]

And how does that work for the 5 or 6 millions living in NYC?

As long as they c an feed in whatever power they generate on site into the grid then pull it back when needed I think they can create a viable system at a reasonable cost per finished bushel

^ does NOT WORK without base load generation. There is no fuel tank to fill up and pull down. Once you pump it into the system it is gone.

[vtsnowedin]

As for solar tractors doing our farming, well that's just a delusion, how are are you going to build them and replace the mammoth batteries without a cheap oil based economy?

By a cheap electricity based economy. Duh. You might not have noticed, but we've made it through years of non-cheap oil based economy, and not much changed then as compared to now. Now even among out among the mining colonies.

I see the roads have lots of electric cars, where are the electric trucks?

You live in a mining colony that can't build them for yourself, so obviously you wouldn't know. Find yourself a civilized place to live where they build submarines for the ignorant natives...and some of those electric trucks too.

Silly aborigines, do you even wear pants where you live? Have you invented the wheel or fire yet?

Forget about pickup trucks, that is not the issue. But they are working on full sized over the road TT units.
https://www.ttnews.com/articles/navista ... -prototype

[Newfie]

VT,

You keep trying to segment the system, to look at some tiny part of it and prove it in.

Not gonna work in real life. You need to look at the whole system; farms, cities, heat, cool, manufacturing, transport, etc.

[vtsnowedin]

VT,

You keep trying to segment the system, to look at some tiny part of it and prove it in.

Not gonna work in real life. You need to look at the whole system; farms, cities, heat, cool, manufacturing, transport, etc.

I'm not following you there. A system is the sum total of the segments. you can't examine the whole system without looking at each segment in detail. If one segment does not work you might find an alternative or you could measure how degrading that failed segment is to the whole system.
The left "Green new deal" people want us to stop using all fossil fuels by 2030 just eight years from now. They are nuts and if left in control will stave millions of us.
But some segments are possible like getting diesel out of agriculture but at a cost and they have to build the electric tractors and combines before they scrap the diesel ones. They are apparently not smart enough to realize this.

[Newfie]

VT,

This discussion is probably futile in this format, it appears we are talking past one another in various points.

There are many areas where we agree and some details where we don’t.

IMHO the Green New Deal is exactly what we do NOT need to fight climate change which is ONE of several serious but related threats.

In the end I believe our discussion is moot because I have zero hope humanity will do anything intelligent until far too late. As much as I dislike it I am resolved to watching us attempt suicide, much like a drunk or other addict. We will need to hit our personal bottom before changing. And that may be too late.

We will never know, that point lies decades or more in our future.

[vtsnowedin]

Talking past each other? Yes sometimes, but at least we are having an intelligent conversation. Unfortunately I share your opinion that nothing actually useful will be done in time. I just rant about all the useless things they want to do that will not work and actually make things worse.

[theluckycountry]

Shanghai's 25 million people under lockdown indefinitely. Chinese social media shows some breaking out of lockdown to protest, chanting: "we want freedom"; "why are you starving us?"
Much of the dissent is censored. Most of videos in our story were erased from the internet @cnn pic.twitter.com/QUHrfqEhiG

Well that's got to save some energy, especially in the factories there. China leads the world again, Power down, that's the only solution.
Now I'm off to ebay to stock up on some half decent Chinese product while it's still on the shelves here in Oz and still cheap. For trade in the future perhaps...

https://tinyurl.com/y53jsbwy

[Newfie]

I do have the strong sense there is something going on within China more significant than we know. For me too many facts don’t add up.

[Newfie]

VT,

In that important point we agree.

[Doly]

The left "Green new deal" people want us to stop using all fossil fuels by 2030 just eight years from now. They are nuts and if left in control will stave millions of us.

The main problem with the "Green new deal" is that it isn't a real plan. It literally can't be done, if you accept the premise of stopping all fossil fuels by 2030. Saying that it might harm millions of people implies that it's doable at a great human cost, but I don't think it's doable at all.

[AdamB]

The left "Green new deal" people want us to stop using all fossil fuels by 2030 just eight years from now. They are nuts and if left in control will stave millions of us.

The main problem with the "Green new deal" is that it isn't a real plan. It literally can't be done, if you accept the premise of stopping all fossil fuels by 2030. Saying that it might harm millions of people implies that it's doable at a great human cost, but I don't think it's doable at all.

I agree with both you and VT, and it isn't a surprise at all that politicians would promise something that can't be delivered. It is like a job requirement for them. Their primary goal is to get elected, pretend to care, make connections so when they leave office richer from insider trading they will make a nice board member somewhere for a multi-national that wouldn't mind their insider knowledge on how to influence lawmakers like they once were. So pretending there is no cost for the provided benefit is like...in their GENES. They wouldn't be worth a damn if they weren't fundamentally snake oil salesmen to the masses.

[theluckycountry]

Forget about pickup trucks, that is not the issue. But they are working on full sized over the road TT units.
https://www.ttnews.com/articles/navista ... -prototype

Navistar announced it is forming a new business unit to support commercial vehicle electrification, solidifying the company’s previously announced plans to enter the emerging electric truck segment.

Why do you proponents of this dream post up these proposals as though they were actually trucks driving all over the nation? It's just a proposal, it will send the stock price higher, and then what... Their prototype is a 'city' truck for small loads, and it probably costs $300,000. Where are all the autonomous cars we were promised would be here by 2020? It's 2022 now and the media is deathly quiet on the subject.

Here is a 'proposal' you can count on coming to fruition.

Australian coal is set to become the second commodity ever to crack $100 billion in annual exports, according to the latest Resources and Energy Quarterly report from the federal government.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-04/ ... /100964414

Coal and oil is powering the world, powering the construction of all your precious re-buildable solar panels and wind turbines. Re-buildables will never generate enough power to rebuild themselves and supply the needs of the planet. The EROEI is simply not there. It's why the people living in states that employ a lot of rebuildable technology see their electricity prices skyrocket.

The whole rebuildable transition is simply a farce, a con-job designed to distract people from the fact that a hundred trillion odd in retirement savings is dependent on tomorrow being much like today, so never mind, keep your money in the traditional paper asset classes, you'll be fine. Meanwhile those of us who see the writing on the wall have been putting our money into some more old fashioned investments, and since 2001, have seen them do spectacularly well.

[theluckycountry]

I do have the strong sense there is something going on within China more significant than we know. For me too many facts don’t add up.

It adds up when you think of China as a centrally controlled communist dictatorship. The demand for their products has taken a big hit worldwide so what choice do they have? They can't just close half the factories and have millions of unemployed people running around the cities, not Chinese people, they have a history of violent revolt. No, just cook up a BS story about a deadly plague and hope they believe it.

In Australia we did the same but everyone who was sent home was paid $600 a week and could sit back and drink craft beer if they wanted. That's the benefit of having billions of tons of minerals and food to export.

[AdamB]

Meanwhile those of us who see the writing on the wall have been putting our money into some more old fashioned investments, and since 2001, have seen them do spectacularly well.

Yup. 401k plans invested in the US stock market have certainly done spectacularly well. Effective AND old school.

[vtsnowedin]

Have you noticed that a few years ago we had flash mobs hitting mall courts and doing Irish dancing or doing a great performance of the 1812 overture and today a flash mob smashes into a high end store and rips off all the merchandise left exposed on the shelves? How times have changed!

[Newfie]

This political self destruction is but one aspect of unplanned degrowth.

Vultures fighting over the carrion.

[Newfie]

Political posts moved to Trump/Clinton Mash Up in NA section

[theluckycountry]

Have you noticed that a few years ago we had flash mobs hitting mall courts and doing Irish dancing or doing a great performance of the 1812 overture and today a flash mob smashes into a high end store and rips off all the merchandise left exposed on the shelves? How times have changed!

And the government sat by and let it happen. What does that tell you? It tells me they are "happy" to see it happen. Black against white, rich against poor, Jew against german, divide and conquer.

[Newfie]

I don’t quite know about that. Some of those incidents were close to my house. Reading about them at the time they were different, more of a social phenomenon. They were arranged online, through broadcasts, many if the participants knew few of the others.

Once I up an in ident where a bunch of teenagers were viciously beating a girl. Right in the heart of Center City. It was very weird. I just walked at them yelling “stop it, stop it and they ran off. The victim ran with them. There were maybe as many as 10 actively hitting her, but many more were in the crowd. They way they flew off reminded me of a flock of birds. Quite an odd experience.

[Newfie]

Article about the infrastructure cost to tap off shore oil. These platforms are truly huge.

https://gcaptain.com/shell-drill-offsho ... ket-years/