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Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 09 May 2023, 00:51:34

yellowcanoe wrote:My perspective is Canada where we managed to grow our population by almost 3% last year -- a tremendous rate of increase for a post-industrial society. One justification is that we have an aging population but the government appears to have relaxed limits on family reunification and of course a lot of immigrants want to sponsor their elderly parents to come to Canada. That pretty much negates any benefit in dealing with our demographic problems. Filling a labour shortage is also trumpeted but the immigrants themselves create additional demands for services that they themselves are not filling. That we continue to have a labour shortage while we've had a high immigration rate for quite a few years shows that immigration itself is contributing to our labour shortage. Economic growth is also supposedly a benefit of immigration but more commentators are noticing that it isn't useful economic growth -- per capita gdp isn't increasing and the country continues to have a productivity problem. Immigration is also seen as a way to deal with our deficit problems but this fails to account for the fact that immigrants themselves need services so the cost of government increases. We are heading for big social problems because our housing stock is not growing quickly enough to accommodate everyone and our medical system already had insufficient capacity to support those of us already here. Of course none of this seems to matter to our Federal government as they just want to keep growing the amount of immigration every year.


IMHO its totally illogical for countries like Canada or the USA or the EU to pretend they are trying to reduce their CO2 emissions and then take in millions of immigrants from third world countries and then elevate them to first world living standards because the carbon footprint of every person in a first world country is unsustainable. For instance, supposedly Canada is concerned about global warming, but adding 3% new people to Canada in just one year is inevitably going to tend to drive Canada's CO2 emissions higher......and at 15.43 metric tons PERSON Canada already has some of the largest CO2 emissions per capita of any country on earth.....even higher then the USA which comes in at 14.67 metric tons per person.

Any effort to reduce CO2 emissions from western countries should include limits on immigration. This was the fundamental position of the Zero Population Growth (ZPG) movement here in the USA but unfortunately ZPG got zero support from the mainstream D political party here in the US precisely because it opposed mass immigration into the USA.

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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby mousepad » Tue 09 May 2023, 07:42:07

AdamB wrote:
mousepad wrote:If only the West would be smart enough to embrace population decline.
So far the West is hell bent on importing 3rd world wholesale and turning them into high performance consumers.


Do you believe this is an "on purpose" or more just the natural consequence of the West becoming rich, and all the children they raise heading towards investment banking and social influencing rather than more menial work that we import the 3rd worlders to do?

It's the consequence of many a thing. Most importantly probably the believe that growth is good while not producing enough children to satisfy that growth. You won't believe it when I tell you. In my retarded super blue state, every single local politician is talking GROWTH. Mind you, team blue is supposed to be the climate saving team.

In my neck of suburbia, the Hispanic contingent of home renovators/tradesmen/lawn care/fast food workers looks to be beyond substantial.

Yes, crazy, ain't it? Importing millions of low-consumption rural village dwellers turning them into high performance american consumers and then hoping once they buy a tesla they are all redeemed and the climate is saved.

An exceptional display of stupidity by the West, no doubt.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 09 May 2023, 10:15:53

AdamB wrote:
Newfie wrote:And the cities are full of uneducated and unemployed and entied and addicted and pissed off of all colors.


Well, having a young daughter who began her professional career and just HAD to live in the city, I wouldn't quite go that far. The homeless endemic is certainly apparent, but the folks you mentioned probably don't have the $2000US/month entrance fee for the run of the mill 700 sq ft apartment, let alone the nice bigger ones. And there are plenty of these working folks around living downtown, so someone is making some bank somewhere in the cities.

However, I would agree that there are enough of these...less well kept....folks in the downtown areas to make them less than a desireable location. The daughter yearned for the big city since she was about 12, achieved it after her first college degree, and fled by the time she finished her post graduate work to the suburbs. Me, I can't stand the suburbs much either but they've grown on me over the decades, plus there are suburbs and then there are suburbs, the kind where you can reach any major professional teams arena on one side, and go elk hunting an equal distance in the opposite direction.



Adam,

Ýour observations are typical of a casual visitor. What you see when entering a city via the state highway system, making a beeline to the college and visiting downtown has little to do with the reality of the city. Yet it is what most suburban people experience.

Get off the highways and major thoroughfares and into the neighborhoods and the situation is very different.

Your description of a "suburb" is what many folks on the East Coast would consider near wilderness. LOL.

I really don't know how to describe it to you but a couple of little vignets may provide a peek through the keyhole.

These come from 25Ish years ago, work site experience, linemen software working on an electrified transit system.
1 - They were keeping track of the least expensive BJ offered. 25 cents.
2 - Thug walks into the warehouse during a formals meeting, pulls a knife and demands their money. The six formen pulled six sidearm.
3 - Thug steals a motorcycle, decapitated himself on the front blade of a loader.
4 - Driving through a neighborhood, local street, a young naked woman tried to get Into my truck, high as a Chinese spy ballon.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 09 May 2023, 12:00:44

Newfie wrote:
AdamB wrote:
Newfie wrote:And the cities are full of uneducated and unemployed and entied and addicted and pissed off of all colors.


Well, having a young daughter who began her professional career and just HAD to live in the city, I wouldn't quite go that far. The homeless endemic is certainly apparent, but the folks you mentioned probably don't have the $2000US/month entrance fee for the run of the mill 700 sq ft apartment, let alone the nice bigger ones. And there are plenty of these working folks around living downtown, so someone is making some bank somewhere in the cities.

However, I would agree that there are enough of these...less well kept....folks in the downtown areas to make them less than a desireable location. The daughter yearned for the big city since she was about 12, achieved it after her first college degree, and fled by the time she finished her post graduate work to the suburbs. Me, I can't stand the suburbs much either but they've grown on me over the decades, plus there are suburbs and then there are suburbs, the kind where you can reach any major professional teams arena on one side, and go elk hunting an equal distance in the opposite direction.



Adam,

Ýour observations are typical of a casual visitor. What you see when entering a city via the state highway system, making a beeline to the college and visiting downtown has little to do with the reality of the city. Yet it is what most suburban people experience.


You'd need to be more specific on "casual visitor". I don't enter downtown on the state highway system, but the usual secondary streets that cut right past the Capital building. I use the public library downtown, otherwise known as "the place where all the homeless within 10 blocks use restrooms, camp outside, and use all the computers available to do..whatever". I was downtown 4 business days last week. My daugther lived there for a year, and my encounters with what we both might refer to as "folks causing the issues" were quite common during that period. My wife's favorite tattoo artist is within 1 block of the largest homeless shelter/food provider location, now THAT location stands out in terms of activity. I am not unfamiliar with walking around the tents on the strip between the sidewalks and street, except where they spill onto the sidewalks. I often use the light rail to get down to the convention center, am in and out of the parking garages when dropping folks off or picking them up, etc etc. So...is this a casual visitor, or someone who gets to see downtown...enough..?

Newfie wrote:Get off the highways and major thoroughfares and into the neighborhoods and the situation is very different.


See above. I can give you the street names if you'd like. Streets where..you know...it ain't like suburbia.

Newfie wrote:Your description of a "suburb" is what many folks on the East Coast would consider near wilderness. LOL.


Well, that certainly might be.

Newfie wrote:I really don't know how to describe it to you but a couple of little vignets may provide a peek through the keyhole.
These come from 25Ish years ago, work site experience, linemen software working on an electrified transit system.
1 - They were keeping track of the least expensive BJ offered. 25 cents.
2 - Thug walks into the warehouse during a formals meeting, pulls a knife and demands their money. The six formen pulled six sidearm.
3 - Thug steals a motorcycle, decapitated himself on the front blade of a loader.
4 - Driving through a neighborhood, local street, a young naked woman tried to get Into my truck, high as a Chinese spy ballon.


Now those sound like some cool stories! How about my naivete, our permanent light rail users pull their hoodies up and their arms into the hoodies to shoot up. Didn't know what it was at first, thought they were playing video games. I am naive when it comes to drugs. The final stop is at a place called Union Station, where all the rail lines end, tie into Amtrak, etc etc. You step off the light rail into the middle of an open air drug market. I thought at first it was a homeless congregation when I first encounted it, but they were polite, didn't hassle you like the homeless, weren't talking to themselves or yelling into the sky, etc etc. About 40 yards away was a huge, 32' or so RV, marked "Police Command Center". No police in sight. Maybe that is why the drug dealers were so polite? Never been accosted, of course this ain't East, so I carried more on my person than just a stern look should folks decide to act...poorly. Never worked downtown regularly, more like a regular visitor. I have no doubt that eastern cities with long histories of the kind of nonsense you've described are worse than my local city. Pittsburgh being the one I am more familiar with than Philly. only been downtown Philly a couple times, and that was in the last century,
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 09 May 2023, 12:35:02

And what exactly is your "local city?
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 09 May 2023, 14:32:25

Newfie wrote:And what exactly is your "local city?

Denver
Plant Thu 27 Jul 2023 "Personally I think the IEA is exactly right when they predict peak oil in the 2020s, especially because it matches my own predictions."

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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby ralfy » Tue 09 May 2023, 19:52:12

Obviously a know-nothing about the Triffin dilemma, U.S. economic growth declining starting in the early 1960s, trade deficits becoming chromic in the 1970s together with real wages peaking, and voodoo economics starting in the early 1980s.

Just use the ignore function.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby theluckycountry » Tue 09 May 2023, 20:49:45

yellowcanoe wrote:
My perspective is Canada where we managed to grow our population by almost 3% last year -- a tremendous rate of increase for a post-industrial society. One justification is that we have an aging population... Filling a labour shortage is also trumpeted... Economic growth is also supposedly a benefit of immigration but more commentators are noticing that it isn't useful economic growth...

We are heading for big social problems because our housing stock is not growing quickly enough to accommodate everyone and our medical system already had insufficient capacity to support those of us already here. Of course none of this seems to matter to our Federal government as they just want to keep growing the amount of immigration every year.


It's interesting isn't it, that is what you described above fits Australia like a glove. Behind the scenes something like the un-elected bureaucrats that govern Europe from Brussels are at work forcing nations to move in lockstep down this garden path. Evidence of a push for one world government for sure.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 10 May 2023, 16:20:33

AdamB wrote:
Newfie wrote:And what exactly is your "local city?

Denver


There in lies much of our difference in perspective.

Denver is a relatively newer city surrounded by much undeveloped land.

Philadelphia is a relatively older city, vast sections lie in near ruins. It is surrounded by dense minor-urban and suburban zones that extend into the adjacent cities, New York and Baltimore, with significant smaller urban zones in between; Wilmington, Newark DE, Newark NJ, Trenton, New Brunswick, etc.

2 hours and your looking at Elk, 2 hours and we are looking at bordegas.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 11 May 2023, 13:09:17

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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby theluckycountry » Thu 11 May 2023, 15:54:27

“Here I am in Chile, in the Atacama Desert, seeing these mining-related harms, and then there I go in the U.S. advocating for a rapid transition. How do I align these two goals?” Riofrancos said. “And is there a way to have a less extractive energy transition?”

When she went looking for research that would help answer that question, she found none, at least not for the transportation sector, which was her area of focus.


Well isn't that interesting. The academic's field of research is the transportation sector, and yet she didn't even see this as a problem until a trip to Chilli? It sort of sums up academia doesn't it. These people live in ivory castles and really haven't a clue how the world works. They assume they will write some paper and industry will "see the light" and change for the better.

We don't need academia now, not in our modern world of corporate control. They serve no purpose, they are just a bunch of befuddled clowns writing papers full of unverifiable claims and teaching students the same rubbish that got the world into the mess it's in today. 99% of climate scientists, most from academia of course, all agree, they make their prognostications, write their papers, and nothing changes. I have been reading BS papers for 20 years and none of them made one iota of difference. They are basically Hopium with a veneer of respectability.

Solar panels and wind turbines and making woodchip in America to sell to Germany for their power plants is entirely a corporate money making enterprise. It has nothing to do with any of the goals stated by these academics. If that academic wants to make a difference then she should stop getting on commercial jets, stop driving her car and pull her air conditioners out.

At the end of the day all these people simply want to continue leading a life of luxury and abundance without having to make too many sacrifices. The solutions they seek are not solutions at all. The only solution is to power down, unplug, take the personal vehicles off the roads altogether and make all other necessary changes to bring us back to an 1800's power consumption level. Sure we can still have some LED lighting, and lots of hitech human powered trikes and 4-weelers and a few other super efficient devices that technology has brought us. But flying in roses from South Africa? Shipping oranges from California all over the planet? No. All that and much more has to go if they really want to fix the nightmare we have created.

The only reason Riofrancos stays in her job is because she wants to buy a nice home and a nice car and have lots of money to fund a modern extravagant lifestyle in her retirement. She is no different to me or any one of us aside from the fact that she is masturbating with these ideas of solutions.

Look at her. She probably spends more on her hair than I do on food.
25 years ago I bought a profession Wahl hair trimmer for $100 and it's still going strong today. I haven't been to a barber since, Now that's conservation.

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"Oh but we have to do something, Lucky" Do we? Could they stop the collapse of the Roman Empire? Could they save the vast temple-city of Angkor in Cambodia from collapse? Did they prevent Easter Island from being turned from a temperate paradise into a treeless sheep station? The real solution, as always, is a personal solution. Just get the hell out of the system and make a life for yourself far from the maddened Consumers who don't see what's coming. Because that is and always has been the problem. Too Many Consumers of Resources, all herded into vast cities, oblivious to where the food and resources come from that sustains them.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby ralfy » Thu 11 May 2023, 19:42:49

In relation to solar panels, etc., check out the Planet of the Humans documentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZsXyDkyrCk
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby theluckycountry » Fri 12 May 2023, 02:52:21

Yeah, good vid. That's what you get when you're NOT paying someone to talk on camera.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 12 May 2023, 10:45:05

Newfie wrote:
AdamB wrote:
Newfie wrote:And what exactly is your "local city?

Denver


There in lies much of our difference in perspective.

Denver is a relatively newer city surrounded by much undeveloped land.


Undeveloped perhaps, but plenty owned by the state and feds as well. And they don't sell it to development unless they are closing down an old air base or something. Building out eastward is still possible, north and south are limited to almost the Wyoming border, and to the south by Colorado Springs nowadays stretching all the way to Pueblo, and it is all crowded up against the mountains to the west (as in, suburbia has reached them, hit the national forests, and stopped). And I'm not sure that the greater development of either is the direct cause of the homeless populations and issues related to drugs and misbehavior around the city centers, which is where our conversation began.

Newfie wrote:Philadelphia is a relatively older city, vast sections lie in near ruins. It is surrounded by dense minor-urban and suburban zones that extend into the adjacent cities, New York and Baltimore, with significant smaller urban zones in between; Wilmington, Newark DE, Newark NJ, Trenton, New Brunswick, etc.

2 hours and your looking at Elk, 2 hours and we are looking at bordegas.


I don't know what bordegas is? I have relatives in eastern PA but still probably 65 miles out of Philly, great place to stage if I need to get to the city (federal building, walk through passports being the last example). Eastern PA is certainly "old" America.

But 2 hours? 2 hours and I'm already over the Continental Divide, past Vail and going to arrive at Aspen soon. More like 10 minutes to elk, as they have a tendency to come down into the hogbacks. You can't hunt them there, but you can sure hit one with a car and get it, and you, killed if you aren't careful.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 12 May 2023, 20:41:11

Lucky,

You are of course correct, but is it not interesting to see one start to wake up and realize the BS? It may have taken her a while but she is learning, and that is rare. She is also written, fairly well, about the experience.

One thing interesting about here observations is that she is just now weeing them, they are coming to her as revelations from a burning bush. She thinks KS she is breaking new ground, and within her cohort, that may be true.

Welcome her to the club, help her make the transition, it ain't easy.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sat 13 May 2023, 12:01:19

Newfie wrote:Lucky,

You are of course correct, but is it not interesting to see one start to wake up and realize the BS? It may have taken her a while but she is learning, and that is rare.

Welcome her to the club, help her make the transition, it ain't easy.


Yes it is rare, rarer still to go public with your beliefs. There have been quite a few academicians whose careers were stymied due to speaking inconvenient truths I'm sure. The corporations do a lot of funding into universities, especially the Pharmaceutical corps, it's why their drugs are in such widespread use of course. Cross them and you'll find your funds for research dry up real fast.

After nearly 20 years of concerted 'fringe' research I have come to the conclusion that mankind is little different to the other species on the planet in that when left unchecked we get totally out of control, like a mice plague, and destroy our own habitat. It's why there has never been a civilization that lasted more than about 400 years, and those that have, like China, have had episodic dark ages.

400 years ago we dragged ourselves back out of a darkage and began the tired old process of building up empires and civilizations once again. I think without coal and then oil the wheels may have fallen off already but the abundant energy has allowed us to innovate more than ever before, and most importantly, provide adequate food like never before.

This academic woman may well be waking up, or she may well be just stating the obvious and will go back to her corporate sponsored research, saying what she has to in order to get the grants. It doesn't really matter in the scheme of things does it? Look at the Greta Thunberg revolution, that has degenerated into a series of tweets now where she gets only 2000 retweets and 10,000 likes. It's over.
https://twitter.com/GretaThunberg/statu ... 1052004352

I wish the woman luck, she'll need it, unlike me she's institutionalized, her life captured by the system at every level. It will take a long way to dig herself out of that pit. I'm not talking about her "Spreading the word to initiate change", that's a waste of time and always has been. No I'm talking about getting out of Doge before the Empire really begins to crack apart. It was easy for me to leave Rome and make a home far out in the countryside, essentially going back in time 30 years and more to a lifestyle free of rampant city madness.

That's the only solution to the problems we face I believe. Go to a place where you are not nearly so dependent on the fossil fuel system we all love. There are many aspects to this, too many to go into in fact, but it sure as hell is nice walking out on your front deck at 10pm and not hearing a car or music or anything in fact. And I live in what is essentially a big suburb, a little town. Good luck with your future Newfie, I hope you make the right choices and weather this current cycle of unwinding.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 13 May 2023, 12:56:38

Lucky,

For better or worse every day that cycles my choices mean less.

At 72 I am not taking up dirt farming.

But boat living suits us. Far from totally independent, but who is?

We just try to do a bit better than average.

Now, the kids? They may likely find themselves in a world of hurt they can not outrun. But they won't listen. All I can do is to be a roll model.

That's my goal in life now, to be a role model of happiness to my kids.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 13 May 2023, 13:05:35

theluckycountry wrote:I wish the woman luck, she'll need it, unlike me she's institutionalized, her life captured by the system at every level.


The retired old farts can afford to lord it over the younger and worried. And you are as much captured as anyone, worse to some extent because the Chinese hardly allow much in the way of freedom of expression, accomplishment with a ChiCom endorsement, and at the very least if you wern't "captured" by the system, would be in Tasmania where it is nicer than mainland mining colony, etc etc.

It is said that as we get older we get more conservative, I would add on that we get more looney tunes as well, the peak oil contingent when the hysteria was at its maximum 20 years ago had a strong bias towards older folks, and doomer scenarios still seem to be discussed and believed more by older folks. My theory is that it is nothing but a displacement scenario for their own mortality, but I'll let psychology types chip in on that one, my expertise in psychology is only observational based on swimming in the same pool as them from a professional interest when they lurch into geomathematics as their Rapture scenario.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby theluckycountry » Tue 16 May 2023, 18:36:38

Newfie wrote:Lucky,

For better or worse every day that cycles my choices mean less.

At 72 I am not taking up dirt farming.

But boat living suits us. Far from totally independent, but who is?

We just try to do a bit better than average.

Now, the kids? They may likely find themselves in a world of hurt they can not outrun. But they won't listen. All I can do is to be a roll model.

That's my goal in life now, to be a role model of happiness to my kids.


At 72 you shouldn't have to worry, you'll be out the gate before it gets too bad. You have over a decade on me so if I live another 20 or so I might begin to really feel the pinch. I understand that role model business as well, I'm just beginning to transition into it myself. Keeping them at a distance is the key I find lol. I don't want to be embroiled with the madness of youth anymore than the madness of city life. I did my duty for them, now they can stand or fall on their own is my feelings. Not quite the "return of the prodigal son" attitude, but there it is.

A lot of people are taking up gardening and if it must be, so be it. But I have thought this future out and as I may have said before I moved to primary producing area where there is abundant food, so unless the government want every to starve they will have to see the region is well supplied. Decent access roads, fuels for the machinery, all that sort of stuff.

Out here it's mixed farming, cattle, chicken farms, we have the lot and I really don't need to go to the supermarket except for salt and butter and the like. Just as well too because most all the food is processed garbage and vegetables that have sat in cold warehouses for months. Hell even most of the bread comes in frozen, shipped for 3 states away! And a lot of the meat is crap. Thankfully there are good local butchers and bakers.

It must be quite different on the boat hey? Limited ways to get exercise, limited access to medical?
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 17 May 2023, 06:54:41

Exercise is an on and off thing; too little to too much. Health care has been less of an issue, my Wife takes some BP medicine, I have no prescriptions. My biggest complaint is gout.

It is generally a healthy lifestyle to he out of the city in clean air. The rocking of the boat helps with arthritis.

Right now just toot into a yard for some work. So I am busy doing things and arranging contractors. I used to do everything myself but the shoulders have decided to have a say in that.

Leaving the city, bot having to deal with public sector contracts and private sector contracts has likely out years on my life. It has for sure increased my happiness.
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