[vtsnowedin]

Over in the Ukrainian war thread Nufie and I got off topic more then a bit, comparing weapons and discussing the USA's new development of a 6.8mm round and a weapon for it to replace the current M4 variant of the M16 which both shoot 5.56x 45 ammo.
While I see the need for improvement I do not think they will ever achieve a one size fits all round that fits both shoulder weapons and mounted machine guns.
I think they would be better off having two rounds, one light for foot soldiers to carry afield with the best optics available and another heavier round for vehicle mounted machine guns and those dismounted onto tripods in dug in fighting positions.
It puzzles me that no one has ever built a machine gun for the 7mm Remington magnum.
Perhaps they think the belt is a problem but as it serves no real function it could be removed and a case with the same powder capacity designed. Perhaps it is the 2.5 inch length of case equal to the 30-06 which wants them to have a .308 case of 2.105 case length which is often given as it's shinning light? Again with the current short magnums trend there are things they could do there to make a shorter non belted case that duplicates 7mm Rem case volume ballistics.
Those ballistics are quite impressive considering they don't need excessive pressures that wear out barrels prematurely. A 7mm mag will put a 150 grain bullet on a target 800 yards away still going 1686 fps and delivering 946 Foot pounds of energy. A 308 with the same bullet is down to 1345fps and 602 ft. lbs. at that range and even a 300 Winchester mag shooting a 165 grain bullet at 3050 at the muzzle is down to 1483 fps at 800 yards and 806 ft. lbs of energy.
Just wondering why they have not tried it.

[Newfie]

Thanks for starting the link.

800 yards is a mighty loooong shot. Not sure why you picked that number. What is the MOA at that range?

[vtsnowedin]

Thanks for starting the link.

800 yards is a mighty loooong shot. Not sure why you picked that number. What is the MOA at that range?

800 yard or 800 meters is apparently the Armies goal. I did not pick it. One MOA at 800yards would give you an eight inch group if the winds were calm and the rifle and shooter capable of one MOA accuracy. That definition and the actual math don't add up to my surveyor self but it is on the more accurate side of the math and is commonly excepted.

[vtsnowedin]

I think the retained energy is the key thing. Even if you make a hit with a 60 grain 5.56 at 800 meters it would be so spent that it would bounce off any modern body armor and if the wearer noticed the hit he or she might get pissed. 946 foot pounds on the other hand is enough to kill an elk and even if your body armor plate holds you will be knocked off your feet gulping for air.

[vtsnowedin]

There are a lot of You tube videos out there of body armor being shot with various bullets and cartridges. Most of them are pistols rounds at close range looking at home defense. I have not seen any of a 7mm Rem mag at long range and certainly not with a military amour piercing designed bullet.

[vtsnowedin]

I just found a video of a 338 lapua shooting FMJ ammo at 200 yards at level 4 Armor chest plates of the two current types. The plates were winning so would not be expected to do any less at longer ranges. A 338 Lapua delivers a whole lot of Whop Ass but you would not want all of your platoon to carry that rifle and 200 rounds for it.
I think the answer is to train your soldiers to shoot very well while under stress and to have them aim at the enemy soldiers extremities not covered by body armor. A bullet through the shoulder will put you just as much out of the battle as a kill shot to your heart.
Back during Vietnam it was stated that it was actually better to wound an enemy then to kill him outright as the wounded soldier tied up two or more of his comrades trying to save his live and EVAC. him to the rear.
A tough business ,war is.

[careinke]

While Serving as the Director of Operations in a small mobile radar unit (70 people), stationed in Northern Germany, our standard op was to only fire single shots and make them count. It allowed us to easily identify the attackers, as they usually came at us full auto. It was quite effective. It helped that we practiced a lot, and our Commander had also helped coach an Olympic small bore rifle team.

Peace

[vtsnowedin]

Practice makes perfect.
I saw that one of the Ukrainian Olympic shooters has joined the Ukrainian army and using her skills to good effect.
Taiwan should start a civilian marksmanship program and get a few million young people trained and in possession of a rifle and ammo.

[Newfie]

Just for perspective a 22LR has roughly 130-180 foot pounds at the muzzle down to about 80 at 100yards. The .223/5.56 has roughly 1,000ftlb at 100 yards.

I don’t want to be shot by a 22lr at muzzle.

[Newfie]

Carinke,

What you say makes sense. Yet stats are pointing toward 40,000 rounds/kill. And we have all seen pictures of “irregulars” holding a Kalisnakov over their heads firing blindly from behind a wall.

It is hard for me to imagine firing off 40,000 rounds in war WITHOUT killing a substantial number even if they are just innocent bystanders. Surely the inner city gangs have a much higher kill rate.

These stats have always baffled me.

[vtsnowedin]

That "hold it over the wall and spray" is called suppressive or covering fire which keeps the enemies heads down while one of your squad moves to a new position. It burns through a lot of ammo but let's you advance on the enemy with a little less risk.

[Newfie]

Yeah, I get it.

Still think it is tough on the civilian population.

[vtsnowedin]

Yeah, I get it.

Still think it is tough on the civilian population.

My point was it is not a cowardly or stupid thing to do.
If you have an enemy in front of you, shooting at you, spraying shots back in their direction to cover your buddies advance is not likely to kill any civilians as they, will if possible, have left the area or dug in.
The USA tries very hard to limit civilian casualties, sometimes at the expense of losing an objective or taking causalities of our own. They don't like the negative press used as propaganda against us from every mistake. That car full of children in Afghanistan as a most recent example.
The Russians and most of our other adversaries hold no such policy however and targeting women and children purposely to destroy moral is one of their favorite tactics.
I expect the death toll of civilians in Ukraine from deliberate bombing and shelling of civilian areas with no military value most likely exceeds the 26,000 Russian KIAs reported so far.

[Doly]

It is hard for me to imagine firing off 40,000 rounds in war WITHOUT killing a substantial number even if they are just innocent bystanders.

Yeah, it's hard for me, too. And I accept that they may be firing all over the place. But still...

After all, ammo manufacturers want to sell ammo, and it's hard to imagine that in a war people are keeping close tabs on where the ammo goes, especially if they effectively are getting it for free in any quantities they ask. And I've read that the Odessa mafia are famous for arms trafficking. They just have to get a boat to Turkey, where it's easy to find buyers. So it's pretty legitimate to ask if a lot of that ammo is ending up in random places in the Middle East.

[Newfie]

Doly, not a thought that had crossed my mind…..but a good one indeed.

Moving on, some mental case just killed 10 in a Buffalo food store. News said a retired cop security guard shot the perp multiple times, but the bullets did not penetrate the shooters body armor.

I wonder what the guard was shooting, and what round. One would think, perhaps wrongly, a 45 slug at close range would knock someone back like a good punch, 400ftlb at muzzle.

P.S.

The End Result – A Different Kind of Trauma
The bulletproof vest or armor plates absorb that energy and dissipate it over a wider area. This energy absorption and dissipation keeps the bullet from penetrating, but the energy is still a threat. A large caliber round like the .45 ACP can still cause significant blunt force trauma to the wearer’s body affecting the wearer in several ways.

Deep bruises or contusions
Broken bones, especially ribs
Tissue deformation and physical damage
Emotional Stress and trauma

https://legionary.com/will-a-standard-b ... acp-round/

[vtsnowedin]

Doly, not a thought that had crossed my mind…..but a good one indeed.

Moving on, some mental case just killed 10 in a Buffalo food store. News said a retired cop security guard shot the perp multiple times, but the bullets did not penetrate the shooters body armor.

I wonder what the guard was shooting, and what round. One would think, perhaps wrongly, a 45 slug at close range would knock someone back like a good punch, 400ftlb at muzzle.

P.S.

The End Result – A Different Kind of Trauma
The bulletproof vest or armor plates absorb that energy and dissipate it over a wider area. This energy absorption and dissipation keeps the bullet from penetrating, but the energy is still a threat. A large caliber round like the .45 ACP can still cause significant blunt force trauma to the wearer’s body affecting the wearer in several ways.

Deep bruises or contusions
Broken bones, especially ribs
Tissue deformation and physical damage
Emotional Stress and trauma

https://legionary.com/will-a-standard-b ... acp-round/

No pistol round has a chance against level 4 body armor or even level 3. Both types can be purchased by civilians. Yes there is the knock-back and bruise factors but that will not keep the wearer from shooting back.
I watched a video yesterday from "Alaskan Ballistics" (Just a couple of You tubers but fun) and they were shooting Armour piercing rounds through a 7mm Remington magnum at 3359 FPS (about three times as fast as any pistol round) and even at forty feet both levels of armor stopped every round.
The guard should have aimed at the perps. chin or hip where there is no plate.
Heroic attempt by him by all accounts.
Edit to add a link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vu-rbcbZ10&t=70s

[vtsnowedin]

The more I look at this new 6.8 military round the less I like it. 80,000 psi to get 3000 fps MV will be a barrel burner and a 7MM Rem mag or the 28 Nosler both will deliver a heavier bullet at that speed using 55,000 psi pressures. I just don't see where having two piece bonded steel/brass case is worth the trouble and possible failures considering the proven reliability of conventional brass cases.
The 28 Nosler is very close in dimensions to the 7 mm Rem Mag but does not have a belt so might feed into and out of machine gun hot chambers better. Experimentation and trials would be needed to chose one over the other.
Both do their best with 26 inch barrels but even if cut back to 20 inches to make room for the newest muzzle brake/sound suppressor I think would give better down range ballistics then the 6.8.
When it comes right down to it it is a matter of finding the right powder and load for the barrel length/ suppressor you want to use, as the right powder for a 26 inch barrel is mostly wasted on an 18 inch barrel and just creates more muzzle flash.
It would be a very interesting project to work on but I hope lobbing has not taken the Army astray once again. .

[Newfie]

Agree that it is hard to understand such a complicated new round with many fine rounds already existing.

I also agree .308 is probably too much and .243 too little. But lots of room between.

BUT it sounds like a done deal.

[vtsnowedin]

Agree that it is hard to understand such a complicated new round with many fine rounds already existing.

I also agree .308 is probably too much and .243 too little. But lots of room between.

BUT it sounds like a done deal.

-
I think the old 250/3000 savage would be a good place to start. Perhaps neck it up to the 6.8 caliber if needed and build barrels with a one in nine twist. Nice short case without a belt or any other foolishness.

[Newfie]

Ah, this will clear it all up for you. LOL
https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org ... r-new-ammo