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Europe: Green energy Thread (merged)

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Re: Europe: Green energy Thread (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 31 Jul 2022, 22:48:08

Doly wrote:
Pure BS, France delayed maintenance on their entire nuclear fleet while the COVID idiocy was going on so right now half their reactors are at zero or reduced power while the workers catch up that delayed work. Cherry picking a spot in time is pretty poor style for argumentation.


That may be a bit of cherry-picking, but nuclear power hasn't been cheap, in France or anywhere else, for at least three decades.


Pardon my shock but what the heck are you talking about? For most of the last three decades France has had stable and moderate electric power prices. Germany on the other hand has gone up some 600% in the last decade.
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Re: Europe: Green energy Thread (merged)

Unread postby Doly » Mon 01 Aug 2022, 14:57:37

Pardon my shock but what the heck are you talking about? For most of the last three decades France has had stable and moderate electric power prices.


Because their nuclear power stations were originally subsidized by the government. Customers never had to pay for the initial investment. If you added the initial cost cost to the cost of electricity in France, which would be accounting for it the same way as everywhere else, it wouldn't be cheap.

Some realistic info about the economics of nuclear power in Europe can be found here:

https://www.world-nuclear.org/uploadedf ... micsnp.pdf

In short, not cheap compared with fossil fuels.
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Re: Europe: Green energy Thread (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 01 Aug 2022, 16:45:33

Doly wrote:
Pardon my shock but what the heck are you talking about? For most of the last three decades France has had stable and moderate electric power prices.


Because their nuclear power stations were originally subsidized by the government. Customers never had to pay for the initial investment. If you added the initial cost cost to the cost of electricity in France, which would be accounting for it the same way as everywhere else, it wouldn't be cheap.

Some realistic info about the economics of nuclear power in Europe can be found here:

https://www.world-nuclear.org/uploadedf ... micsnp.pdf

In short, not cheap compared with fossil fuels.


I am sorry but I see no logic in your argument. Every energy source be in hydroelectricity, petroleum, coal, solar, wind, geothermal or nuclear fission has all kinds of government subsidies and tax loopholes so I see zero value in pointing to one or another and making that the crucial factor against it. Secondly the document you linked to quite plainly says nuclear fission is right in the middle of the pack along with coal in terms of expenses when CO2 emissions are not a factor in pricing, and it is cheaper if even modest CO2 charges are enacted which was in the planning stages when the document was released way back in 2008.

Customers/taxpayers did pay for the cost of all subsidies to all different power sources so saying subsidies are ignored is kind of a head scratcher for me on this one. European governments in the last decade have poured literally trillions of euros into subsidizing Wind and Solar installations in Germany, yet their electricity charges to customers have shot up through the roof. In the 1975-1995 period France decarbonized their grid by subsidizing a complete build out of two types of PWR reactors in standard designs and from 1985-2015 electricity prices in France went down and allowed the nation to export power to neighbors at a profit. After Fukushima in March 2011 Germany went way over the top on the anti-nuclear crusade and started shutting down plants while simultaneously engaging in a massive solar and wind build out at the same time. Unfortunately they got so caught up in the rhetoric that last year they shut three moderately old plants and this year are planning to shut the last three moderately old plants which has reduced capacity so much they have reopened two coal burning plants to offset the reduced flow of gas while the Nordstream One pipeline has been at reduced capacity for repairs. This has led to a modest backlash in Germany against the phase out program because the electricity costs have become very restrictive on the population and the six fission plants were all in perfect working condition and easily able to operate for another ten to twenty years without major work being needed to continue safe operation.

I like wind/solar/geothermal/tidal/hydroelectricity but I also recognize that properly maintained and sited Nuclear Fission is just as clean and very reliable for baseload which makes using the cyclic "renewables" meaning wind/solar/tidal units much more practical than building massive storage systems. Solar is especially good in summer when its provides its peak power right when A/C demand is highest, a kind of perfect marriage IMO matching supply and demand. I like wind because I live in a windy microclimate so right near here wind is a fairly steady supply and can be a semi-reliable source for about 50% of the day which is pretty good for a sort of random energy source. If I were in one of those places where Tidal supply can be accessed I would be all for that too. Around here we do have some small scale hydro electric plants, most dating back to the 1920's with updates and hey are very clean and useful but the volume of power they can supply is rather limited as the landscape is gently rolling land so dam heights are very limited.

Nobody around here is going to invest in geothermal as all our geologic hot spots cooled off a long time ago and the area is pretty geologically stable, but we have coal, natural gas and petroleum extraction going on in this state.

I happen to trust the science on global warming and I would like the fossil fuel use to be phased out as quickly as possible and I do not mean half measures of switching from coal to natural gas and calling that a victory. The problem with switching to natural gas is the companies doing the switching are spending a lot on gas infrastructure and they will fight to keep using that infrastructure as long as possible. Hundreds of smaller older coal power plants were shut down in the last two decades and replaced with gas burning units but look at those coal plants. Half of them were grandfathered in the clean air act and should have been closed in the 1980's but politically influential people/companies kept them open for three decades after they should have been scrapped. I can easily see the same things being done with the gas plants that were built in such numbers in the last twenty years and still being built at a considerable rate even today. Just because they "only" produce half the CO2 of a modern supercritical steam coal burning power plant does not make them climate friendly, and the inevitable leaks in the natural gas production, distribution and combustion process means they also contribute to CH4 pollution which is about 70 times the impact of CO2 emissions on a molecule by molecule basis. Switching from Coal to Natural Gas is analogous to choosing between a 60 degree down slope and a 45 degree down slope when you are in a vehicle with no brakes. Sure it takes a little longer to get to the bottom with the 45 degree slope, but when you hit the wall at the bottom you are still dead.
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Re: Europe: Green energy Thread (merged)

Unread postby Doly » Tue 02 Aug 2022, 14:44:55

Every energy source be in hydroelectricity, petroleum, coal, solar, wind, geothermal or nuclear fission has all kinds of government subsidies and tax loopholes so I see zero value in pointing to one or another and making that the crucial factor against it.


I was not arguing against nuclear, I was merely pointing out that it isn't cheap.

I like wind/solar/geothermal/tidal/hydroelectricity but I also recognize that properly maintained and sited Nuclear Fission is just as clean and very reliable for baseload which makes using the cyclic "renewables" meaning wind/solar/tidal units much more practical than building massive storage systems.


Actually, nuclear doesn't solve the problem of renewables being variable, because nuclear plants are slow to start and stop. It allows for a baseload, as you say, which means that the total amount of variable electricity can be reduced, but it isn't the only way of reducing variability.

I happen to trust the science on global warming and I would like the fossil fuel use to be phased out as quickly as possible and I do not mean half measures of switching from coal to natural gas and calling that a victory.


Switching to gas is definitely an improvement, and also gas power plants are very quick to start and stop, which make for a very easy way of compensating for the variability of renewables.

The problem with switching to natural gas is the companies doing the switching are spending a lot on gas infrastructure and they will fight to keep using that infrastructure as long as possible.


That wouldn't be an issue if people switched from using natural gas to some form of biogas.

I do agree completely with your point that once infrastructure gets built, people tend to fight to use it. In my modelling, I could actually predict the change in types of energy that get used worldwide with the simple assumption that only the low EROEI types of energy get abandoned, and anything that is about average gets kept even with competition of better EROEI sources. Which I think is an excellent argument for having a well thought-out energy strategy with engineers in charge of it, instead of following whatever market forces dictate and/or random politicians promise in their campaigns. Neither are going to produce a good strategy.

Just because they "only" produce half the CO2 of a modern supercritical steam coal burning power plant does not make them climate friendly, and the inevitable leaks in the natural gas production, distribution and combustion process means they also contribute to CH4 pollution which is about 70 times the impact of CO2 emissions on a molecule by molecule basis.


Methane converts to CO2 once it's released to the atmosphere relatively quickly, so saying that it has 70 times the impact is somewhat misleading, because that extra impact doesn't last long.
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Re: Europe: Green energy Thread (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 02 Aug 2022, 15:35:11

Doly wrote:Methane converts to CO2 once it's released to the atmosphere relatively quickly, so saying that it has 70 times the impact is somewhat misleading, because that extra impact doesn't last long.


Its not at all misleading. Its a scientific fact that can't be ignored. Methane is a significant contributor to Greenhouse warming precisely because it has 70x the impact of CO2.

Now......Lets think about the math here......

If we continue to emit methane to the atmosphere MORE RAPIDLY then it can be converted to CO2 in the atmosphere, then the concentration of methane will continue to grow in the atmosphere and the greenhouse warming effect of methane......which is 70x more powerful then CO2.........will continue to grow and cause more global warming.

And thats what's happening in the real world......

Image
Lookie LOOK! The concentration of CH4 in the atmosphere is at an all historic time high.....and the rate at which CH4 is increasing in the atmosphere is actually accelerating!!! Clearly we are adding CH4 to the atmosphere MORE RAPIDLY then it is converted to CO2, because the atmospheric concentration of CH4 is going UP!

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Re: Europe: Green energy Thread (merged)

Unread postby Doly » Wed 03 Aug 2022, 14:31:41

If we continue to emit methane to the atmosphere MORE RAPIDLY then it can be converted to CO2 in the atmosphere, then the concentration of methane will continue to grow in the atmosphere and the greenhouse warming effect of methane......which is 70x more powerful then CO2.........will continue to grow and cause more global warming.


Fair enough. But CO2 is still the main contribution to global warming.
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Re: Europe: Green energy Thread (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 03 Aug 2022, 17:52:19

Doly wrote:
If we continue to emit methane to the atmosphere MORE RAPIDLY then it can be converted to CO2 in the atmosphere, then the concentration of methane will continue to grow in the atmosphere and the greenhouse warming effect of methane......which is 70x more powerful then CO2.........will continue to grow and cause more global warming.


Fair enough. But CO2 is still the main contribution to global warming.


Of course.

But if we want to stop global warming, we have to totally rewrite or even get rid of the worthless Paris Climate Accords and have a new UN climate treaty that will focus on reducing greenhouse gas emissions on a global basis. Hopefully this future UN treaty will place constraints on the emissions on all human produced greenhouse gases---not just CO2. The UN Kyoto Accords, for example, put (voluntary) limits on 7 greenhouse gases, including:

Carbon dioxide (CO2)
Methane (CH4)
Nitrous oxide (N2O)
Hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs)
Perfluorocarbons (PFCs)
Sulphur hexafluoride (SF6)
Nitrogen trifluoride (NF3)

Image
N20 is the third most important greenhouse gas for global warming

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Re: Europe: Green energy Thread (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 23 Oct 2022, 14:51:07

Europe's Energy Crisis Was Created by Political Intervention | Daniel Lacalle



An energy policy that bans investment in some technologies based on ideological views and ignores security of supply is doomed to a strepitous failure.

The energy crisis in the European Union was not created by market failures or lack of alternatives. It was created by political nudging and imposition.

Renewable energies are a positive force within a balanced energy mix, not on their own, due to the volatile and intermittent nature of the technology. Politicians have imposed an unstable energy mix banning base technologies that work almost 100 percent of the time and this has made prices soar for consumers and threatened security of supply.

This week, Ursula von der Leyen, President of the European Commission, gave two messages that have grabbed many headlines. First, she announced a strong intervention in the electricity market, and then she stated at the Baltic Sea Energy Security Summit the proposal to increase renewables to 45 percent of the total generation mix by 2030. She considers that this is not an energy crisis but “a fossil fuel crisis.”

However, Ms. von der Leyen’s messages have two problems. Europe’s energy crisis is due to intervention at a massive scale. Furthermore, massively increasing renewables does not eliminate the risk of dependence on Russia or other commodity suppliers.

The European electricity market is probably the most intervened in the world. More intervention is not going to solve the problems created by a political design that has made most countries’ energy mix expensive, volatile, and intermittent.

Ideology is a bad partner in energy.

Between 70 and 75 percent of the electricity tariff in most European countries are regulated costs, subsidies, and taxes set by governments and, in the remaining part, the so-called liberalized generation, the cost of CO2 allowances has skyrocketed due to those same governments that limit supply of permits and the energy mix is imposed by political decisions.

In Germany, only 24 percent of all costs in a household bill are “supplier costs,” according to the BDEW 2021. The vast majority of costs are taxes and costs set by the government: grid charges (24.00 percent), renewable energy surcharge (20.00 percent), sales tax (value-added tax) (16.00 percent), electricity tax (6.00 percent), concession levy (5.00 percent), offshore liability levy (0.03 percent), surcharge for combined heat and power plants (0.08 percent), levy for industry rebate on grid fees (1.30 percent). However, the “problem,” according to the messages of the President of the European Commission, is the market. Go figure.

It is surprising to read that Europe’s power markets are “free markets,” when governments impose the technologies within the energy mix, monopolize and limit licenses, prohibit investment in some technologies or close others, as well as forcing a rising cost of CO2 permits limiting their supply.

Intervention was to shut down nuclear power and rely massively on natural gas and lignite as Germany did. Intervention was to prohibit the development of domestic unconventional natural gas in Europe. Intervention is to shut down reservoirs when hydro power is key to lower household bills. Intervention is increasing subsidies at the wrong time and then raising taxes on efficient technologies. Intervention is to stop the gas pipeline that would double interconnections with France. Intervention is to prohibit lithium mining while talking of defending renewables, which need this commodity. Intervention is to fill the consumer’s bill with taxes and regulated costs that have nothing to do with energy consumption. Intervention, in essence, is the chain of errors in energy policy that have led Europe to have electricity and natural gas more than twice as expensive as in the US, as Durão Barroso warned in 2013.

European power prices are not expensive by chance, but by design. The exponential increase in subsidies, regulated costs, and the price of CO2 emission rights are political decisions.

Eliminating baseload energies (nuclear, hydraulic) that work all the time and replacing them with renewables that need a backup of natural gas and heavy investments in infrastructure is expensive. It has been throughout Europe, and it will continue to be.

An energy transition must be competitive and guarantee security of supply, or it will not be. More intervention does not solve the problems.

European governments should worry about erasing from household bills all those items that have nothing to do with electricity consumption, including the cost of past planning errors, and lower taxes that are simply unaffordable. Those items should be in the national budget and other nonessential expenses should be cut to avoid rising deficits.

The market is not always perfect, but government intervention is always imperfect.

Governments are awfully bad at picking winners, but they are even worse at picking losers. Constant intervention leaves a trail of debt and cost overruns that all consumers pay.

What happens when the government intervenes? It closes nuclear power out of ideological obsession and then depends on 40 percent of its energy mix on coal, lignite, and gas, like Germany. Or it brings its flagship public company to the brink of bankruptcy by intervening tariffs, like France. Or, like Spain, it creates a diplomatic conflict with its largest natural gas supplier, Algeria, and, with it, doubles its gas purchases from Russia since the beginning of the war to July 2022.

Now, the European Union is rushing to install new floating regasification plants. More than thirty. The problem? That practically all the liquefied natural gas ships for this winter have already been contracted.

The same governments that refused to strengthen natural gas supply chains when it was cheap are now rushing to spend vast amounts on low-efficiency solutions.

Installing renewables does not eliminate dependence on natural gas. Renewables are, by definition, intermittent, and volatile as well as difficult to plan. Additionally, installing more renewables also requires huge spending on transmission and distribution investments, which makes the tariff more expensive.

Investing more in renewables is positive, but no politician can say that they are the only solution. The storage problem, the astronomical cost of a battery network and the necessary infrastructure, estimated at more than two trillion euros if it were feasible, are key factors. If today Europe had a 100 percent solar and wind mix, it would be excessively volatile and intermittent, and in periods of low solar and wind availability it would increase dependence on natural gas, which is necessary as backup, and the need for hydro and nuclear, baseload energies that work all the time. Additionally, renewables, which are positive in a balanced energy mix, do not reduce dependence on other countries. Countries become dependent on China and other nations for lithium, aluminum, copper, etc.

Installing 45 percent renewables in the mix does not eliminate the dependence on natural gas, it only reduces it slightly in the part of the renewable load factor that is more stable (part of wind production). In fact, dependence on periods of low wind energy and low solar yield would be extremely high and, as we have already experienced, those coincide with periods in which gas and coal are more expensive due to greater demand.

If there is one thing that this crisis shows us, it is that what Europe needs is more market and less intervention. Europe arrived at this crisis due to a combination of arrogance and ignorance on the part of the legislators who control the energy mix. The importance of a balanced mix, with nuclear, hydro, gas, and renewables is more evident every day.

Interventionist energy policy has failed miserably. More intervention is not going to solve it.

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Re: Europe: Green energy Thread (merged)

Unread postby C8 » Sun 23 Oct 2022, 15:35:18

Good article posted by Tanada above.

The short version is this:
1. Europe's energy is planned and run by the govt. Private companies may do the grunt work, but the governments make all the important decisions.
2. Govt. is run by well heeled politicians who face no consequences for bad decisions and can put ideology over practicality or facts- the ideologues control the media and distort the govt. failures to the masses
3. European citizens have become pampered passive sheep who no longer have the animal energy to organize and take back their governments from ideologues.
4. Things will only change when massive pain hits the masses and they start rebelling in a serious way

I doubt the European Union can survive all this
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