[mousepad]

Numerous studies show that EVs have a much greater carbon footprint then ICE cars when they roll off the manufacturing line,

Funny. In order to make the EV CO2 beneficial you need to drive it A LOT !!
And driving A LOT goes against what we should be doing in the first place. LESS. Less work, less production, less consumption, less waste.

I'm disappointed in this PO business. I wanted $20/gallon gas to curb consumption. Yet what do I get? Cheap cheap gas.

[AdamB]

Numerous studies show that EVs have a much greater carbon footprint then ICE cars when they roll off the manufacturing line,

Funny. In order to make the EV CO2 beneficial you need to drive it A LOT !!
And driving A LOT goes against what we should be doing in the first place. LESS. Less work, less production, less consumption, less waste.

And us humans are just so good at doing less, consuming less, kicking back and saying, "oh, let's just not go on our global monthly jet setting adventure". Plant happily jet sets around while expressing faux environmental concern, no different than Elon and Company. So it isn't as though it is only the super rich with the attitude, even those trapped in some boring frozen backwater yet still beautiful place have no desire to just kick back and stay put, why should anyone else be expected to? Right down to the inner city mother of 5, who would really like to fly across the country to the beach with the kids to not be in some housing project for just a little while.

I'm disappointed in this PO business. I wanted $20/gallon gas to curb consumption. Yet what do I get? Cheap cheap gas.

Join the club. My EVs are wildly cheap compared to running costs on my ICE machines at $3.50/gal, they would be the bee's knees at $20/gallon. Neighbors would want to borrow them, I could rent them out maybe, or sell or trade them for more than I paid for bigger newer neater ones. Plus, regardless of what causes gasoline to go to $20/gal folks would use less, we would be assigning a better value to such a valuable commodity, and the old school peak oilers who imagined that $7/gal was the end of the world would still look like halfwits when the world keeps chugging along at $20/gal.

[mousepad]

An article from 2015
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/ ... ng-761178/

That driverless cars are on their way is a foregone conclusion–car manufacturers predict highly autonomous cars will arrive between 2020 and 2030 while Google, which has been testing a fleet of self-driving cars on California highways, suggests they are only three years away.

Hahahahahaha. Them techno fanbois, what a weird species.

[AdamB]

An article from 2015
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/ ... ng-761178/

That driverless cars are on their way is a foregone conclusion–car manufacturers predict highly autonomous cars will arrive between 2020 and 2030 while Google, which has been testing a fleet of self-driving cars on California highways, suggests they are only three years away.

Hahahahahaha. Them techno fanbois, what a weird species.

I remember that phase, it certainly looked like pod cars driven by computers was right around the corner. If you think about it, just as bad a prognostication as peak oils stretching back from 2005 through 1990. There are no facts in the future.

If you were going to predict a craze or fad going on today that will go just as bust as these two examples, what would it be? Bitcoin or Crytpo's? EVs in their entirety? ICE machines? Real meat?

[mousepad]

If you were going to predict a craze or fad going on today that will go just as bust as these two examples

Yes, but self driving cars is not a craze or fad that went out of fashion. It did not perform because of the limited performance of AI.
AI is the underlying technology that drives all this. And any halfway decent AI engineer should have KNOWN that this stuff is way more complicated.
Same as software engineering. Getting a piece of software to 90% functionality is easy, getting the remaining 10% is hard as hell.

Is there a community somewhere where stuff is close by? Such that you can use a battery golf cart to go places? That would be a good approach to implement electric vehicles.

[Plantagenet]

Numerous studies show that EVs have a much greater carbon footprint then ICE cars when they roll off the manufacturing line,

Funny. In order to make the EV CO2 beneficial you need to drive it A LOT !!

Yup. Exactly right.

And thats where the problem lies.

In order for an EV to be driven "a lot" it has to stay on the road and travel all those miles.

But the latest insurance data shows that EVS are taken OFF the road at a significantly higher rate than ICE cars because they are almost unrepairable. Insurance companies are now requiring EVs to be crushed rather than repaired after even minor fender benders because they are concerned the crash will damage the battery and lead to a spontaneous combustion fire. An ICE vehicle can often be repaired after a minor crash and it can go on motoring down the road while a comparable crash in an EV results in the entire car being sent to the scrapheap.

The latest insurance data shows that hundreds of EVs are being taken off the roads when they are still almost new. This means those cars will NEVER be driven far enough to make up for the surplus of CO2 emissions they start with.

Building a car with a HIGHER CO2 footprint is a crazy way to try to reduce carbon emissions, since it results in HIGHER CO2 emissions every time an EV is built.


With EVs the carbon footprint of the big toe gets smaller while the carbon footprint of the ball of the foot gets bigger. You're just shifting around where the carbon gets generated. The shape of the carbon footprint changes but the total size doesn't change much at all

I'm disappointed in this PO business. I wanted $20/gallon gas to curb consumption. Yet what do I get? Cheap cheap gas.

It's amazing how efficient capitalism is.

Time after time when a commodity gets too expensive the market somehow seems to always find a cheaper commodity to replace it. Or...in the case of oil.....when it got to be too too hard to find more huge conventional oilfields where the oil is trapped in highly permeable rocks, the oil market switched to producing from tight oil source rocks. Capitalism triumphs again.

But don't give up on Peak oil just yet.......THE GOOD NEWS IS we're still probably going to reach a peak in oil production because governments are mandating a switch from ICE vehicles to EVs. It will be a peak in OIL DEMAND rather then a peak in oil supply but it sill will be a peak.....but the BAD BAD NEWS is this won't reduce global CO2 production by much, if at all.

CHEERS!

[AdamB]

If you were going to predict a craze or fad going on today that will go just as bust as these two examples

Yes, but self driving cars is not a craze or fad that went out of fashion. It did not perform because of the limited performance of AI.

Well, it didn't make craze/fad status in reality, true, but I meant the same thing in regards to the question I asked. A current fascination, claims of world will be different soon!, that sort of thing. AI might be one of those things I suppose as well. Folks seem to have already extrapolated it into human doom, no different in that regard than peak oil or Mayan calendar or Y2K stuff in their time.

AI is the underlying technology that drives all this. And any halfway decent AI engineer should have KNOWN that this stuff is way more complicated.
Same as software engineering. Getting a piece of software to 90% functionality is easy, getting the remaining 10% is hard as hell.

Tell me about. I don't know how long the LTG model took to work out and get answers, but just one subset of something similar related to peak oil and natural gas was years, even after you had the main operating design components within 6 months. That problem was all about integration though, not sure that is the same as forcing the last 10% of functionality into it.

Is there a community somewhere where stuff is close by? Such that you can use a battery golf cart to go places? That would be a good approach to implement electric vehicles.

Someone was pulled over in Florida using a golf cart to run around a community I think, like the mayor, and got pulled over by the local cops, and then let go. She did the "I'm connected" routine and the cop let her go, and it caused some sort of stink. But sure, golf course and golf cart communities exist, I just don't know if they have expanded much beyond said golf courses and rich folks though.

With even shorter range EVs like mine, I can reach everything I might want without trouble, can roam inside the entire beltway of a major city. And I don't have a long range EV at all, just a normal cheap one.

[AdamB]

Numerous studies show that EVs have a much greater carbon footprint then ICE cars when they roll off the manufacturing line,

Funny. In order to make the EV CO2 beneficial you need to drive it A LOT !!

Yup. Exactly right.
And thats where the problem lies.
In order for an EV to be driven "a lot" it has to stay on the road and travel all those miles.

Oh my yes, goodness knows people don't buy EVs to put miles on them, they just let them sit in the garage to be admired for their virtue signaling by their neighbors.

Alaskan genius in action again.

Yes Plant, this is what we EV owners do with our EVs after we buy them. And as far as "scientific accuracy", this car looks exactly like one of my EVs.

[theluckycountry]

If you were going to predict a craze or fad going on today that will go just as bust as these two examples

Yes, but self driving cars is not a craze or fad that went out of fashion. It did not perform because of the limited performance of AI.

Driverless cars were abandoned because they were a stupid idea from the start. People like to drive, it's only the brainless commuters that doesn't trust themselves behind a wheel that cheerleadered the technology. The exact same principles of over-estimation apply to the modern electric cars. They never lived up to the hype, in fact, in every single area they fell far short!

They are not nor ever will be carbon free.
They are not nor ever will be cheap.
They consume more carbon than an ICE car over their lifetimes because the average driver limits their usage. Those expensive carbon made batteries will be long dead long before the expected mileage is ever achieved.
They are not more reliable simply because they have fewer moving parts. They run low on power regularly and recharging on the go is a nightmare, that limits usage, makes them unreliable as a means of modern transport.

They are actually about as reliable as a horse. You ride a horse for 100 miles or so then you have to rest it for the night and let it recharge so to speak. In the old days if you wanted to ride continuously for a long distance you'd swap out your horse for a fresh one, but that's not practical with an $80,000 EV.

An entire industry based on lies, based on maximizing profits by any means. Government is sold on the idea for their own agenda, which has nothing to do with saving the planet and everything to do I believe with getting as many cars off the road as they can, so they can tactfully avoid the rebuilding of the nations road infrastructure, which they can't afford at any rate.

[theluckycountry]

Funny. In order to make the EV CO2 beneficial you need to drive it A LOT !!

Yup. Exactly right.

And thats where the problem lies.

In order for an EV to be driven "a lot" it has to stay on the road and travel all those miles.

But the latest insurance data shows that EVS are taken OFF the road at a significantly higher rate than ICE cars because they are almost unrepairable.

One more nail in the coffin of the EV. Thankfully the data is showing that we are near or at 'peakEV' so we can leave this BS behind us and get on with the business of a transition to lighter more efficient ICE cars and the building out of efficient mass transit for the boobs in the city.

It's very telling that the world leader in automotive's, Toyota, have no plans at all to build an EV. They see a practical use for the hybrid, the self recharging hybrid, but not a full electric.

[kublikhan]

One more nail in the coffin of the EV. Thankfully the data is showing that we are near or at 'peakEV' so we can leave this BS behind us and get on with the business of a transition to lighter more efficient ICE cars and the building out of efficient mass transit for the boobs in the city.

It's very telling that the world leader in automotive's, Toyota, have no plans at all to build an EV. They see a practical use for the hybrid, the self recharging hybrid, but not a full electric.

Incorrect. Toyota already makes a BEV and has plans for more models to come:

[Toyota's CEO] has indicated he will accelerate Toyota’s fully electric vehicle tech development. Last month, Sato revealed his new vision for the company, including significantly boosting EV productivity and profitability. Those plans include 10 new battery electric vehicles (BEVs) and 1.5 million EV sales (as a “base volume”) annually by 2026.

Toyota confirms a dedicated EV platform is in the works
During Toyota’s fiscal earnings release, Sato said the automaker will invest an additional 1 trillion yen ($7.5 billion) into EV development and production by the end of 2030.

Toyota is creating a dedicated BEV platform with plans to reveal next-gen EVs

And once again, the data is not saying we are at or near 'peakEV'. Sales keep breaking new records:

Global sales of electric cars are set to surge to yet another record this year, expanding their share of the overall car market to close to one-fifth and leading a major transformation of the auto industry that has implications for the energy sector, especially oil. The new edition of the IEA’s annual Global Electric Vehicle Outlook shows that more than 10 million electric cars were sold worldwide in 2022 and that sales are expected to grow by another 35% this year to reach 14 million. This explosive growth means electric cars’ share of the overall car market has risen from around 4% in 2020 to 14% in 2022 and is set to increase further to 18% this year.

Demand for electric cars is booming, with sales expected to leap 35% this year after a record-breaking 2022

[AdamB]

It's very telling that the world leader in automotive's, Toyota, have no plans at all to build an EV. They see a practical use for the hybrid, the self recharging hybrid, but not a full electric.

Fools claim where even a child can just google up the truth.
All-new, three-row, battery electric SUV will be assembled at Toyota Kentucky starting in 2025

Stick to what you know Lucky. Just because Toyota won't invest in a labor force in a county lacking citizens capable of buiding a Ferris wheel, let alone cars, doesn't mean you are required to be Third World ignorant on their investment in countries and workers that have easily proven they can do both.

[theluckycountry]

Oh I see toyota does have an electric version now, a bz-whatever. I'm sure they have built it just for appearance sake, a virtue signal. But Toyota buyers are typically a more intelligent lot than the ones that flock to the Korean offerings, and God Forbid, a useless Tesla. They see the value in the Hybrid and are not at all sucked into the electric cars.

2023 Toyota EV Sales Do Not Look Good So Far
The $42,000 starting price of the 2023 Toyota Bz4X makes it a tough sell compared to the multiple hybrid SUVs in the Toyota lineup priced well below that. Toyota is one of the most experienced automotive brands in the world of hybrids, but it’s been slow to adapt to EVs. The Japanese automaker only has one EV in its lineup for 2023 – the 2023 Toyota bZ4X SUV.

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/2023-toyot ... look-good/

Toyota's been slow to adopt... Toyota cares about it's reputation and doesn't want to go down a dead-end, which the full EV is. Imagine the reputational damage when they start catching on Fire! No, Toyota is smart, they won't expand this line I would think, they'll just keep making a fortune out of their bread and butter units.

[AdamB]

Oh I see toyota does have an electric version now, a bz-whatever. I'm sure they have built it just for appearance sake, a virtue signal.

Yes, Toyota building multi-billion dollar virtue signaling factories churning out EVs by the tens of thousands is exactly how they became such a profitable company over the years. Virtue signaling. How clever of you to found them out.

[Plantagenet]

The fact that EVs aren't being repaired after minor accidents seems like a big step backward to me.

You'd think car manufacturers and insurers would want to make their cars MORE RESILIANT and MORE SUSTAINABLE rather then less sustainable.

AND It seems to me the car manufacturers are more to blame then the insurers.

Apparently the insurance companies are pressing the EV manufactures to give them more data on battery failures but the EV manufacturers are refusing to share their battery data.

It gotten so bad that the insurance companies are charging EV owners much higher insurance premiums then an ICE driver faces, AND the insurance companies are threatening to pump up their premiums even higher if the EV companies don't get their act together.

car-insurance-firms-threaten-ev-makers

AND Apparently not all EV brands automatically get thrown away after a minor crash.

Tesla seems to be the worse. Their batteries are utterly unrepairable so the car isn't repairable either and it gets trashed after minor accidents.

And Stallantis is just as bad....they make Chrysler, Jeep, Fiat and Abarth, Alfa Romeo, Citroën, Dodge, DS, Fiat Professional, Lancia, Maserati, Mopar, Opel, Peugeot, Ram, and Vauxhall.

Stellantis policy is that any accident where the air bag deploys (i.e. a crash at 8 mph) means the EV is automatically classified as unrepairable and trashed. And they might trash the car at under 8 mph, but if the airbags deploy forget it....the EV is going to the crusher.

HECK....a mobility scooter for the very very old goes at 8 mph. AND Come to think of it...mobility scooters are EVs too!


EV owners should try to keep their speed under 8 mph. Any crash at a higher speed will result in their EV being classified as unrepairable and off it goes to the junkyard!!!! And if two EVs collide both must be going less then 4 mph or they'll BOTH GET CRUSHED!!!!

WHAT A WASTE!!!

SHEESH!!!!!

[AdamB]

[i]EV owners should try to keep their speed under 8 mph.[i]

No thanks. Strikes me as better to learn how to drive a cage, practice, and then just don't crash your EV at all. While your well advanced age might make it seem normal to advocate for walking speed limits for you in your cages (let alone having only maybe 190 low speed roads miles to drive around on anyway), please don't project those fears onto others.

[theluckycountry]

The fact that EVs aren't being repaired after minor accidents seems like a big step backward to me.

You'd think car manufacturers and insurers would want to make their cars MORE RESILIANT and MORE SUSTAINABLE rather then less sustainable.

It does seem odd, but the logical reason, to me at least, is that the basic design of these vehicles is flawed. They are all constructed with a massive bank of highly explosive chemical compounds integrated the full length of the sub-frame. How can you make that more resilient? You can't. It's like trying to make a rocket ship safer, you can't unless you remove the highly explosive chemical compounds from it and then it wouldn't lift off the launch pad.

The Tesla EV and it's clones are just poor engineering. They took the brilliant Toyota Prius design and tried to make a gasoline free version, but the Toyotas' battery is much smaller and located in a single compartment in the rear, no doubt an area resilient to the shock of impacts. I think when Tesla was in the development stage they were working off one of these HPI Vorsa R/C buggies.

A very cool little RC car and lots of fun. The large battery pack laying on the sub-frame isn't an issue because the weight of the buggy is light and it doesn't crumple under impact. I know, I have one downstairs

[theluckycountry]

I can't wait for harly davidson to bring out a battery version of their puss buckets, I'm sure they will, they have done everything else wrong for the last 70 years

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu1sJbypEb4

[AdamB]

You'd think car manufacturers and insurers would want to make their cars MORE RESILIANT and MORE SUSTAINABLE rather then less sustainable.

It does seem odd, but the logical reason, to me at least, is that the basic design of these vehicles is flawed.

Yes, well, let us know when you get that high school diploma and we'll discuss what that might have taught you about mechanical engineering.

Can you discuss your personal experience with EVs? Of course not. But owning an electric toy undoubtedly makes you a genius among your Aussie neighbors working as Chinese laborers.

[mousepad]

It does seem odd, but the logical reason, to me at least, is that the basic design of these vehicles is flawed.

yes, some lessons need to be learned the hard way. Let's see if EV engineers can get it right eventually.
Who knows? Maybe some guy somewhere finally understands that lugging around a 1 ton battery to get groceries ain't the best idea.

Some lessons need to be learned the hard way, it wouldn't be the first time:
https://fortune.com/2020/01/10/designed ... m-737-max/

Designed by clowns…supervised by monkeys:’ Internal Boeing messages slam 737 Max