[theluckycountry]

Quick question: Who probably knows more about the EV market, kublikhan, or the chairman of Toyota, the company that led the way with the hybrid Prius?

EV Skeptic Toyota Chairman Says People Are 'Finally' Waking Up To Reality Of Electric Vehicles

Toyota's chairman and former CEO, Akio Toyoda, told reporters at an auto show in Japan this week that waning demand for electric vehicles is a sign that people are waking up to the reality that EVs aren't the silver bullet against the supposed ills of carbon emissions they're often made out to be. "People are finally seeing reality" about EV technology

Asked by reporters at the auto show on his thoughts about falling EV demand, Mr. Toyoda's response implied that he feels vindicated in his reluctance. "There are many ways to climb the mountain that is achieving carbon neutrality," he said while suggesting that consumers are finally waking up from a dreamscape pushed by climate change alarmists that puts EVs on a pedestal and overhypes their benefits while downplaying their drawbacks.

His remarks came as demand growth for EVs in various markets has slowed, leading some companies to dial back their electrification plans.

https://www.zerohedge.com/economics/ev- ... c-vehicles

They are not the vacuum cleaner. They are not personal computer. They are not the mobile phone. They will not revolutionize the planet. They are more of a niche thing, like the personal Drone, which was a lot of fun until flying regulations caught up with the tech and people lost interest.

[kublikhan]

Quick question: Who probably knows more about the EV market, kublikhan, or the chairman of Toyota, the company that led the way with the hybrid Prius?

Actually, I agree with Toyoda on many points. Ex: hybrids are a valid option. You on the other hand have a conniption fit every time hybrids are mentioned. So maybe you be asking yourself, who knows more about EVs, you or or the chairman of Toyota?

Toyota, the world’s largest automaker, plans to invest $70 billion in electrified vehicles over the next nine years. Half of that will be for all-electric battery ones. While it’s a substantial investment in EVs, it’s smaller than some competitors’ plans, and not as much as some would like given Toyota’s global footprint. Despite criticism from some investors and environmental groups, Toyoda this past week doubled down on his strategy to continue investing in a range of electrified vehicles as opposed to competitors such as Volkswagen and General Motors, which have said they are going all-in on all-electric vehicles.

Toyoda, who described Toyota as a large department store, said the company’s goal “remains the same, pleasing the widest possible range of customers with the widest possible range of powertrains.” Those powertrains will include hybrids and plug-in hybrids like the Prius, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles like the Mirai and 15 all-electric battery models by 2025. “Toyota can produce eight 40-mile plug-in hybrids for every one 320-mile battery electric vehicle and save up to eight times the carbon emitted into the atmosphere.”

Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda talks about why he isn’t all-in on EVs

I also share his skepticism on many of these 100% EV mandates, as I have been saying for years:

Toyoda believes it will be “difficult” to fulfill recent regulations that call for banning traditional vehicles with internal combustion engines by 2035, like California and New York have said they will adopt.

CA's strategy seems to be to steam forward with blind hope and political mandates in lieu of informed planning.

I'm not so sure that EVs are more than good enough today to warrant a mandate. They are still much more expensive than a comparably equipped ICE. To me it seems a bit premature to start mandating EVs. Their sales are still dependent on government subsidies. Sales would fall if these subsidies were removed. Yet many governments are looking to do exactly that: replace subsidies with mandates. This to me seems like governments washing their hands of the whole EV transition challenge and pushing it onto automotive companies and consumers. If governments want this transition to happen they should help make EVs an appealing choice by assisting with battery research to bring down costs, not cutting funding to such programs. Setting standards, not leaving us with a Hodgepodge of charging plugs. Raising fuel taxes, not shying away because it is politically tough sell. Yet many governments are taking the easy way out with mandates.

[Plantagenet]

I agree with Toyoda on many points. Ex: hybrids are a valid option.

Count me on your side on this one, kublikhan.

EVs aren't an end in themselves.....they are a tool to reduce CO2 emissions and increase sustainability.

AND Hybrids are another tool to reduce CO2 emissions and increase sustainability.

Personally, I wound up buying a hybrid (HEV) and I'm very happy with it. Of course I live in Alaska where there are very very few public charging stations and it's a very very long drive to get to the next little bit of civilization so a hybrid was the logical way to go, IMHO.

But I can see situations where pure battery EVs make a lot of sense. For instance, for local travel in cities where charging isnt' an issue and driving distances are short small EVs like electric scooters or the microlino EV mini-car make a whole lot of sense.


microlino-worlds-smallest-electric-car

Cheers!

[mousepad]

For instance, for local travel in cities where charging isnt' an issue and driving distances are short small EVs like electric scooters or the microlino EV mini-car make a whole lot of sense.

Get out of town. A small electric car with a license plate of Zürich, Switzerland.
A dense city with plenty of (on time) public transport and mostly walkable distances.

No EV needed at all, but maybe a ban on all cars would do the city some good.

[theluckycountry]

Get out of town. A small electric car with a license plate of Zürich, Switzerland.
A dense city with plenty of (on time) public transport and mostly walkable distances.

The fanboys are starting to chatter about Hybrids now that the writing is on the wall for the EV, But the hybrid is not an EV, it's an ice car with an electric component. And they will chatter about these little EV things too, but they don't buy them, they buy these.



Hell, you're hard pressed even to find an image online that is small. And the average ev fanboy won't transition small either, that seems obvious now. It'll be HUGE and then the Bust and a pushbike

All truth passes through the three stages. In a couple of years the fanboys will all pretend "Oh no, I never though EV's were practical, the gasoline hybrid though..." My brother has a toyota hybrid, a non plugin one. He thinks it gets great mileage because it's a hybrid. Ask him how the battery is charged and he assumes it regenerative braking lol. He hasn't a clue! It's only super efficient because it has a 2022 super efficient gasoline engine in it. It would be even more efficient too, if energy wasn't being wasted charging the battery off the alternator.

[ralfy]

Those are even more expensive than ICEVs, and EVs themselves have substantial costs when the batteries need to be replaced (in some cases, up to 40 pct of the cost of the vehicle).

At best, most countries have large corporations use EVs as PUVs, and the same corporations set up by EV distributors or financed by foreign donors. Otherwise, most can only afford to use surplus ICEVs, and there are many of those available from richer countries that have laws forcing people to buy new vehicles regularly.

Other than that, the minority (that is, the richest) can buy hybrids, but to show off, or buy EVs as secondary vehicles to be used as playthings.

[theluckycountry]

Quite! And no one is looking at the Lithium reserves, the Cobalt reserves, or the cost of extraction and processing. TV watchers, thinking in soundbites, thinking in 6-month corporate earnings projections.

Cobalt is an essential component for EV batteries.

Digging for cobalt in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, where 60% of the world’s supply is found

[yellowcanoe]

Quite! And no one is looking at the Lithium reserves, the Cobalt reserves, or the cost of extraction and processing. TV watchers, thinking in soundbites, thinking in 6-month corporate earnings projections.

Cobalt is an essential component for EV batteries.

The industry has been working to reduce the amount of cobalt required in Lithium Ion batteries and other Lithium battery types such as Lithium Iron Phosphate don't require cobalt at all.

[Plantagenet]

....the hybrid is not an EV....

Thanks for my laugh of the day.

I'm constantly amazed by how many people don't know what EVs are.

AND here we go again. Please allow me to help.

Here is the definition of an EV: electric vehicle: an automobile, e-scooter, e-bike, or other vehicle having an electric motor that is fully or partially powered by batteries. : See also BEV (def. 1), HEV, PHEV.

Do you understand the definition of the term EV now?

If so, then please note that at the end of the definition are some related terms, i.e. BEV, HEV, PHEV. IMHO the term FCEV should also be part of the list.

There are four main kinds of EVs....

There are the Battery Electric Vehicle or BEVS. These cars rely solely on battery power.

There are Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles or PHEV. These cars use both battery and ICE engines, and the battery can be plugged in.

There are Hybrid EVs, or HEV. These cars use both battery and ice engines, but the battery can only be charged from the gas engine powering the car.

AND

Now under development are Fuel Cell EVs, or FCEVs, which use a fuel cell to generate electricity and charge a battery to power the car.


There are four kinds of EVs....BEVs, HEVs, PHEVs, and FCEVs.

Cheers!

[theluckycountry]

The industry has been working to reduce the amount of cobalt required in Lithium Ion batteries and other Lithium battery types such as Lithium Iron Phosphate don't require cobalt at all.

I remember when another industry was working to cure cancer, they kept at it for 30 years and then figured out that a lot more money was to be made treating cancer instead.

[theluckycountry]

Hmmm Peter Zeihan Weighs in on EV's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P95NFlAnmY&t=2s

Perhaps he's not so much of a squid... What did he say at 5:25? What did he say kub?

[theluckycountry]

Might need a new thread for this one.

Ford CEO: "Our Compressed Air Engine Will Bankrupt The Entire EV Industry!

First, Ford CEO tells the industry "EV's are a sinking ship"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7i_nRC_Kt8

The compressed air engine. Will watch this with interest as time goes on. There is no doubt they work, it all boils down to efficient high-pressure storage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtLfHxGE-3o

Jeep CEO weighs in too, EV's are a dead end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlRC4SsOr_s

Well AdamB, no sympathy for you. You should have sold those dogs while the public was still mesmerized by the Bullshit. Sorry but I can't help buy laugh at all of this, the selfdriving EV debacle included. All the chickens are coming home to roost across the entire techno renewable complex. It's like the whole futuristic market is being exposed as a scam at the same time.

And it really divides people into two camps doesn't it. Those that believe the TV and dream of a Jetson's future, and those that actually have some basic understanding of science and of how the world works. The last shoe to drop will be Tesla of course but the writing on the wall is there with the massive price reductions. The EV isn't dead yet but it's certainly being wheeled into the operating theater, closely followed by the Priests of EV reading the last rites.

[theluckycountry]

Ex: hybrids are a valid option. You on the other hand have a conniption fit every time hybrids are mentioned. So maybe you be asking yourself, who knows more about EVs, you or or the chairman of Toyota?]

No kub, I am on record here, numerous times, claiming the simple fact. Hybrids are Gasoline powered vehicles with a small electric component. They make sense for urban travel and the newer ones even for long trips, but never forget, they run on GASOLINE. This is the fundamental mistake you have made, you bundle them in with EV's, just like the mass media does, to hide the fact that EV sales were not that strong. Hybrids shouldn't even be on this thread but because of the lie they have to be unpacked here.

Peak EV?

18 November 2023
Number of electric cars sold has PLATEAUED, with inventory piling up and prices slashed - but sales of gasoline vehicles remain strong

EV sales have stalled at around 100,000 a month for the last six months
The average price of a new EV has slumped by $13,000 in the last year
Overall car sales still remain strong, despite industrial action shuttering plants in recent months

The reduced demand has seen inventories stock piled, ...Gasoline vehicles however remain the most popular choice across the US, with the gas-guzzling Chevrolet Silverado top overall.

Car sales are up two per cent compared to a year ago, despite widespread industrial action in the last few months which ground many plants to a halt in recent months. The figures have prompted many EV manufacturers to scale back their operations amid apparently waning demand.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... trong.html

Now go dig up some more stats from 2022 kub to prove me wrong lol. Soon 2022 will be TWO years ago, what will you do then?

Do you know that for years after the Segway fell from glory there were posters claiming that it was still the future of inner-city transport? Those that buy in hook line and sinker with these con-jobs take the longest to admit reality. I am confident we have passed peak EV uptake and all the data from the last 6 months bear that out. Car sales are still increasing, just not EV sales. I think we will see those sales falling in the next six months as people wake up to the reality and walk away to a brighter future in super-efficient gas powered cars.

[ralfy]

"48V Electric Car Conversion"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8ftCb95ci4

[kublikhan]

No kub, I am on record here, numerous times, claiming the simple fact. Hybrids are Gasoline powered vehicles with a small electric component. They make sense for urban travel and the newer ones even for long trips, but never forget, they run on GASOLINE. This is the fundamental mistake you have made, you bundle them in with EV's, just like the mass media does to hide the fact that EV sales were not that strong.

What are you on about now? I have always clearly labeled the source of the sales: BEV, plugin, or hybrid. And contrary to your claim, most sources don't even include plugless hybrids in EV data, only plugin hybrids. So you are just arguing with yourself here.

Hybrids shouldn't even be on this thread but because of the lie they have to be unpacked here.

"The lie" huh? I wonder if you can appreciate the irony of you posting lies post after post and then accusing others of lying. I doubt it.

Now go dig up some more stats from 2022 kub to prove me wrong lol. Soon 2022 will be TWO years ago, what will you do then?

Lucky lucky lucky. You really should not be getting your "stats" from tabloids that post headlines like "Woman, 63, ‘becomes PREGNANT in the mouth’ with baby squid after eating calamari". I know you really want to prove your call of 'Peak EV', but using tabloids like the Daily Mail for 'stats' is really not a very smart thing to do.

The Daily Mail tends to publish stories utilizing sensationalized headlines with emotionally loaded wordings such as “Woman, 63, ‘becomes PREGNANT in the mouth’ with baby squid after eating calamari”, which is a misleading headline. In 2017, Wikipedia banned the Daily Mail as an ‘unreliable’ source. When it comes to sourcing information, they use minimal hyperlinked sourcing and sourcing to themselves.

Credibility Rating: LOW CREDIBILITY

Daily Mail – Bias and Credibility

There should be a thing like negative credibility. I mean British journalism doesn't have much, but the Daily Mail is really quite bad. It does not just do sloppy and tendentious journalism like the rest. It actively spreads misinformation, hate and insecurity.
...
Daily Mail credibility? On a 10 scale, somewhere between 0 and 1 much of the time.
Long ago, I gave DM a thorough read over several days, perhaps several weeks. Using my Restaurant Protocol (visit many, remember the best, always seek new experiences), the Daily Mail earned a place deep in my trash pile as a tabloid hell bent on sensationalism via fact manipulation and outright false content.
...
If you’re looking for balanced, and above all accurate, news reporting, then you really need to look elsewhere. The Mail is a sort of comic for intellectually challenged, under-educated bigoted types, who like nothing more than to use it to boost their confirmation bias. Apart from that it’s a publication for airheads who want to read about the Kardashians and Megan and Harry until they puke. So in summary, not reliable at all other than for the above nonsense they print on a daily basis.
...
How credible is theDaily Mail?
Absolutely zero!!! Horrible rag.
...
How credible is theDaily Mail?
It’s not terribly credible. It is over-the-top sensationalistic and given to wild exaggerations on topics as diverse as crime and politics. It is entertaining, in a classic Fleet Street kind of way, but there are many better sources for someone looking for a straightforward account of what’s going on in the world.

How credible is the Daily Mail?

Now if you had spent even 30 seconds looking for a legitimate source, you would very quickly find that the 'stats' posted in the Daily Mail are false:

Nov 14, 2023 (Reuters) - Electric-vehicle sales are seeing continued strength globally with China reporting record monthly sales in October despite the end of subsidies. EV sales in China, the world's largest auto market, increased 29% year-to-date in September. The global EV market showed 34% growth in the same period.

EV sales grew 26% in European markets. EV sales in North America were up 78% so far this year.

Global EV sales stay strong, China hits record despite end of subsidies

[theluckycountry]

Discussing the decline and fall of the EV market
Eric Peters has been banging this drum for more than a decade over at his blog Eric Peter Auto Blog bringing a deft touch of humor, hard-hitting analysis and a withering critique of not just the car industry itself but also the regulatory nightmare that has turned car ownership from an opportunity into a burden.

Episode #160 - Eric Peters and How the War on Cars https://player.fm/series/gold-goats-n-g ... reat-reset

[theluckycountry]

Behind the curtain of China's EV revolution
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw631F-yOWo

Fully registered, and abandoned.

[img]https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.3pij-a6VVrq9_H8sqNgGgwAAAA?w=314&h=180&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=1.5&pid=1.7[/img

[Pops]

The main objection to EVs is range anxiety. Then price and charging.

I think range anxiety is a systemic social problem driven by virtually free energy. The average American drives 15k miles a year because oil allowed him to.

Likewise, the crazy high prices are simply a matter of consumer expectation.

When lack of fuel reduces our ability to drive 15k/a, and pay $1,000/m car payment...
we won't.

As always the question is, do we volunteer or are we forced?

[theluckycountry]

....the hybrid is not an EV....

Thanks for my laugh of the day.

I'm constantly amazed by how many people don't know what EVs are. AND here we go again. Please allow me to help.

No thanks plant. I don't need any of your regurgitated TV marketing qualifications. EV stands for Electric Vehicle. Period! It is a vehicle powered by electricity. A gasoline powered car is just what it is, an ICE car. A hybrid is a mix of the two and since the vast majority of Hybrids use 70~ 100% gasoline to power themselves they should be classified as ICE cars but we call them Hybrids to make the distinction.

Toyota's range is increasingly what they call "Self charging" hybrids. In these cars 100% of the energy to drive the car is provided by gasoline, the battery is charged off the gas engine. The piddling amount that comes from regenerative breaking and coasting is not worth considering. The only thing that makes them seem super efficient is the under-powered Atkinson cycle engine and CVT they employ.
Here, see for yourself. Educate your dumb self.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnxdAURqpfY (4 year old knowledge plant)

[theluckycountry]

The main objection to EVs is range anxiety. Then price and charging.

I think range anxiety is a systemic social problem driven by virtually free energy. The average American drives 15k miles a year because oil allowed him to.

It's a bit like food. Average people go to the shops once or twice a week because they are running out of food. If you know you have enough food for a year though, the supermarkets are no longer a necessity, you have the 'power' in a sense, you are in control and can source food elsewhere if need be. Fuel is different, we need it on a weekly basis, though I have stretched that out to 2 months or so with my home fuel supplies and motorcycle usage. But I'm still as dependent as anyone even with the buffer.

Now if I bought an EV and charged at home off my solar I would be free of this dependence, but not free of the system since the car must be maintained by experts and most have wifi oversight so they can be shut down against my will. When the oil is gone EV's are gone too so the decision is do I want to spend a fortune on a car with a ten year lifespan now just in case we lose access to fuel in that ten year window? The answer is No.