[theluckycountry]

As this thread evolves, and the earlier versions disappear down the peakoil.com rabbit hole, people will forget what was once an EV. I expect we will see all manner of nuvo vehicles being branded with the EV label as though they were such all along. As with all corporate failures, they simply rebrand and move on to greater profits, the uneducated public swallowing the new marketing.

If an oil well is pumped by electric motors and the oil burned in cars then those cars will be EVs too in the future. Look at kublikhan and plants insistence that 100% gasoline powered Hybrids are EVs, hell all my cars are probably EVs, after all they have an electric starter motor, and once, years ago, I used such to lug a car down the driveway when the engine wouldn't start. So I had one of the first EVs

This was my EV, a HR Holden, 1967 model. You wouldn't believe the power that starter motor put out. I could have taken the spark plugs out to reduce drag and filled the backseat with old lead acid batteries and increased the range too, but you know, gasoline was so cheap.

[ralfy]

According to one lecturer in another thread about peak oil, in countries that have high EV densities, it turns out that EVs are used as second vehicles, with ICEVs retained, because the former has numerous disadvantages, including short ranges, difficulties in handling inclines, high costs (a small, medium-priced EV is more expensive than a subcompact ICEV with more power, carrying load, cargo space, etc.) limitations in carrying load, and so on. That means that those who purchase them belong to the fairly wealthy (i.e., they can afford to buy a second vehicle), use them mostly for city driving, and purchase them to take advantage of various benefits, such as free parking, no taxes, exclusion from any traffic bans, and so on.

Here's what was gathered so far by one recent article for an EV costing around US $12,700, and sold in countries where most can barely afford to buy a used ICEV costing less than half of that:

Price: around 25 pct more expensive

Operating cost: per km cost 75 pct

Maintenance cost: probably fairly the same per year across the life cycle as ICEVs but has a lump sum cost of around 40 pct of the original retail value of the vehicle every eight years or so to replace the batteries

Cargo and weight: can carry up to around four people (hopefully, not very stout people) and half the trunk load of ICEVs of similar size

Performance: reasonable in terms of speed (up to 100 kph, which means it can be used for highways), but more powerful models costing at least twice the price will be needed for high inclines and mountainous areas; the range is around half or less, which means charging stations will be needed (pay extra to get fast chargers, as regular charging for a full load will have to be done overnight)

Pollution: much less in the vicinity of the vehicle, but takes place elsewhere, in mining, manufacturing, and disposal of batteries, plus any fossil-fuel powered energy sources needed to provide electricity (another source in the thread points out that to have full EV adoption in places like the states electricity supply has to be increased by around 40 pct)

Lastly, the reference in the video to an oversupply of bicycles in China is notable, i.e., they came up with a bike-sharing system, with bicycles discarded anywhere, such that they ended up with piles of abandoned, broken, and rusting bikes. Meanwhile, companies that provided those services shut down but owners earned because they were being paid by state and met production targets.

[theluckycountry]

According to one lecturer in another thread about peak oil, in countries that have high EV densities, it turns out that EVs are used as second vehicles, with ICEVs retained, because the former has numerous disadvantages, including short ranges, difficulties in handling inclines, high costs ...

Yes, quite true. Down here the Tesla came in at $120k some years back and you still see the odd one running around, not so much out my way even though a lot of city wealth moved into this rural area. I haven't seen any of those little tesla cars yet, nor any other brands, but a hell of a lot of Petrol powered hybrids.

They buy them to look eco, or the salesman sells them on the "Green" economy aspects, though no one would buy them if they weren't only 4 or 5 grand over the conventional ICE versions. Like the Toyota corolla hybrid, they are all 100% gas powered but with the gutless Atkinson engine they get the extra mileage and the buyers think it's because the car is partly electric powered. Imagine buying a new car and not even understanding how it works? Not even doing the most basic research on youtube? The world is full of such people, it's no wonder there are so many successful scams out there.

[theluckycountry]

Toyota’s profits rise 78% on strong sales

TOKYO (AP) — Toyota’s profit for the first fiscal quarter jumped to 1.3 trillion yen ($9 billion) — a quarterly record for Japan’s top automaker ...Quarterly sales totaled 2.3 million vehicles, up from 2 million the previous year. Demand for its hybrid models was especially strong. Toyota has long been a leader in hybrids, which switch back and forth between an electric motor and gas engine to deliver higher mileage.

Koji Sato ...is promising an aggressive shift on electrification. He has acknowledged Toyota fell behind in electric vehicles, but he also stressed it’s going to catch up.

Q2 operating profit jumps 155.6%
Raises full-year f'cast 50% to 4.5 trln yen

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos- ... 023-11-01/

Ahhh, the masters of spin. Good on them, because they are only conning the scientifically illiterate EV buyer anyway. Fell behind? They call their hybrids EV's, that's the spin, and with record profits from the sale of these gasoline powered cars I sincerely doubt they'll start throwing money down the rabbit hole of true electric only cars. They are not the sort of company to shoot itself in the foot, and unlike the Europeans and Americans, they realized they didn't actually have to build an EV to "Appear Green" and get the sale.

We have to use common sense these days and bypass the scientific marketing that so many swallow hook line and sinker. We have to come up with our own definition of what constitutes a Hybrid. Why? Because if we really need or want a hybrid, and we buy any old hybrid, we may get stranded in a future if gasoline is not available. Toyota do make a plugin hybrid, which is what I would call a Real hybrid. A car that can run on gasoline as well as run on electricity not generated by gasoline.

This is the distinction and I'll now explain how it works in the real world. In the real world our access to Gas might be curtained, Ok, so we lose our long range, but we can still utilize our hybrid by charging it off our wall socket at home. Conversely we may have an extended blackout and be unable to charge it, but if we have supplies of gas on hand it's not an issue, we are still able to drive it. This in a practical way defines a hybrid, a car that can run independently on two completely different energy systems. It's redundancy and why I think true hybrids are a good choice for many. Not for me though because they don't make one in 4x4 with a powerful V6 engine and I'm not willing to compromise on that while I still have reliable access to petrol supplies.

Sales figures don't lie, except in China where tens of thousands of EV's are sold, registered, then parked in fields. The massive sales of the Toyota range confirms what we all know, that most people are not willing to give up convenience and security to buy an EV. They don't want to be sitting in a cafe for an hour waiting for their car to get a fillup, they don't want to be stranded in the middle of nowhere because the battery if flat.

I say Most people because EV's typically only make up 1% of cars on the road. But try to search that statistic, the BS media hides it and instead offers you story after story on "Electric vehicle sales" What does it matter if sales are 8% when only 1% of the population in a given year buy a new car. It's a statistic that's only meaningful to auto manufacturers and even to them it's a pretty lame indicator of success in the endeavor. If 92% of buyers want a conventional vehicle your better off making them, if you want a profit like Toyota has. Total EV sales passed the 100,000 mark in Australia this last September. Sound good? There are 20 million cars on our roads though, so that's only 0.5% of all cars on the road and the major sales were in the ACT, the nations capital where all the politicians hangout. I'm sure they have lots of chargers there.

https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/more-t ... -australia Sep 2023

If you want to know where Toyota is heading with it's hybrids and battery tech https://www.reuters.com/business/autos- ... 023-06-13/

They don't talk of true EV though, and with their profits, why would they. They know the EV are a dead end. A novelty for city people, a technology that is dependent on the aging and fragile power grids that feed them.

[careinke]

The Tesla Y Is number one in car sales for 2023 in Europe with Zero chance of any other car catching up this year.

Peace

[theluckycountry]

"Mr. President, Tap The Brakes": 3,900 Auto Dealers Warn EV Demand Crumbling

...Additionally, the soaring prices of new electric vehicles pose a significant affordability challenge for the average working-class American. Beyond affordability issues, consumer interest in EVs is also waning. This sentiment is echoed by 3,900 auto dealers who have written to President Biden, urging his administration to reconsider the pace of EV mandates, citing a severe decline in demand for these vehicles.

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/mr-pr ... -crumbling

We all know how this ends. There is an election, a new president, and then the backpedaling.

[mousepad]

EVs had 79 percent more reliability problems than a gasoline- or diesel-powered vehicle, on average. Plug-in hybrids fared even worse; these had 146 percent more issues on average than the conventional alternative.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/ev ... r-reports/

This is something I don't understand. University study after university study told me that EV is the "solve-it-all" solution. Now it turns out EV can barely make it down the road without falling apart. Is that really happening?

[Pops]

I'd like to see a ranking of EV models alone, or select models vs ICEs, rather than all manufacturers of every stripe. I guess I'm not so interested to look for one tho, LOL

But really, ICEs have been around for 150+ years, EVs maybe 20 at production levels, less? High failure rate early, then increasing reliability is typical of any new product. I am old enough to remember when getting 100k from an ICE was unusual, now 200 without much fuss is expected. I've put good money into a 20 Y/O diesel because 200k for that particular engine is mid-life.

Early adopters are key to this early phase of EV experimentation. So is government support—if the benefit is sufficient.

Personally I'll never own an EV, to poor. I may build an e-bike or maybe trike.

[kublikhan]

I'd like to see a ranking of EV models alone, or select models vs ICEs, rather than all manufacturers of every stripe. I guess I'm not so interested to look for one tho, LOL

Consumer Reports has reliabity scores for individual models. It's behind a paywall though:
Who Makes the Most Reliable New Cars?

I don't want to post paywalled data, but it's mostly what you would expect. Toyota/Lexus & Honda/Acura models are at the top. Chrysler at the bottom. There were some surprises for me though. Given Germany's reputation for quality engineering, I was a bit surprised to see so many German models near the bottom of the list, thought I admit I never owned or shopped for one. And I was surprised to see Kia make it into the top 10. I guess Kia has been improving while German brands have been getting worse.

But really, ICEs have been around for 150+ years, EVs maybe 20 at production levels, less? High failure rate early, then increasing reliability is typical of any new product. I am old enough to remember when getting 100k from an ICE was unusual, now 200 without much fuss is expected. I've put good money into a 20 Y/O diesel because 200k for that particular engine is mid-life.

That's basically what the article says as well: EVs are new so it is to be expected they will be less reliable than ICE that has been around for awhile now. Although I was a bit surprised to see Hybrids rank better than ICE. You would think with their less proven and more complicated drivetrain they would have more issues than ICE. Although that may just be because most hybrids are made by more reliable automakers like Toyota and have less bells and whistles.

"EVs are still in their relative infancy as mainstream vehicles, so it’s really not surprising that manufacturers, by and large, are still working out the kinks. That said, we are seeing signs of movement in the right direction. And as our data has consistently shown, reliability-minded consumers would be best served by forgoing brand new vehicles in their first model year."

EVs have 79% more reliability problems than gas cars

Hybrid Reliability Shines
This year’s survey data show that hybrids continue to be among the most reliable vehicle type: Hybrids have 26 percent fewer problems than conventional models, even though they have both a conventional powertrain and an electric motor and therefore more potential problem spots than conventional cars.

“It might not seem that long ago, but Toyota launched the Prius hybrid about 25 years ago,” Elek says. “Automakers have been making hybrids long enough that they’ve gotten really good at it. Plus, many hybrids are also made by manufacturers that tend to produce reliable vehicles overall.

Hybrids also are not typically loaded with high-tech features like multiple customizable displays that can be problem-prone, which is why Fisher says they are great options for drivers who are more interested in getting ideal fuel mileage than they are in bells and whistles. “These vehicles are not necessarily a tour de force of technology, so there’s just less that can go wrong with them.”

Fisher says there are always exceptions to these reliability trends, which is why it’s vital to consider the reliability score of any model before buying. “PHEVs as a class are unreliable, but the Toyota RAV4 Prime plug-in hybrid is one of the most reliable models in our survey this year. Similarly, the Ford F-150 hybrid has transmission and other issues that buck the trend of strong hybrid reliability.”

Electric Vehicles Are Less Reliable Than Conventional Cars

[theluckycountry]

Well whatever the reasons for curtailment, the dumping of the EV is continuing apace.

Ford Offers Updated 2023 Guidance, Will Slash $12 Billion In EV Investments As Result Of UAW Contract https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/ford- ... w-contract

In one sense it's a shame, about 3 years ago I was looking forward to owning an EV. Not a ridiculous sports version, I thought that was a stupid waste of the technology and something that should have come long after they nailed the basics of range and reliability. I was willing to sacrifice power and looked at the Nissan leaf, and the more I read the more I realized that the range and longevity of the EV was the deal breaker.

For those who like to live on debt and swap their cars out every 4 years like a corporation these issues don't matter. But I wanted a car I could keep for 8 to 10 years, a car I could get my money's worth out of. By the end of that period though it was obvious the car would be extremely limited in range and have a resale value approaching Zero. My current car is actually 12 years old, but it only has 130,000km on the clock. All the more modern cars in it's class have shifted to 4-cly and CVT transmissions. Neither of which I want any part of.

So while mine still purrs like a kitten I'll keep it because it's not like the motorcycles I buy, the new ones I've upgraded to are light-years ahead of the 00's models. Car manufacturers have been dropping the ball imo, half don't even have proper automatic transmissions and those that do you can't even change the fluid in.

[theluckycountry]

Personally I'll never own an EV, to poor. I may build an e-bike or maybe trike.

If you like cycling you'll love that! I bought a S/H Bafang converted mountain bike, it's a real pleasure to cruse out into the hills, just plodding along at 30km/h or less. You can actually relax and enjoy the view which is something impossible on a motorcycle. The biggest letdown on all of them is the drive-train imo, specifically the chain. A human puts out about 250W going flat strap but my bike has a 750W motor and others much more. The little bicycle chains flog out very fast at these power levels. If you do build one look into sourcing a stronger chain, or go with direct drive hub motors. A belt drive perhaps?

[Pops]

I bought a S/H Bafang converted mountain bike, it's a real pleasure to cruse out into the hills,

The biggest letdown on all of them is the drive-train imo, specifically the chain.

Yes that's what I hear. I think I'm interested in the mid-drive nonetheless, I'm an old hand at the whole bike gear-shifting bit and think the mechanical advantage for hills and loads would be worth a broken chain hear and there. I need to acquire a suitable candidate, I sold my ancient Schwinn and have a lowly generic Huffy currently, great for the money but as cheap as it gets, a 750 or 1kw BBSHD motor would fold it up like an accordion, LOL

I see lots of ads for ready-made e-bikes on sale right now but the kits not so much. Bafang is typically a la cart with lots of possible missteps. I need to find a good used bike first. Kinda hard out here in "Rollin' Coal" country, LOL

[theluckycountry]

Yeah, just carry a spare chain and swap your chains out every few months and you'll be good. couple of good forums dealing with it

https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/
https://electricbike.com/forum/forum
https://www.ebikechoices.com/how-to-ins ... ang-bbs02/

[theluckycountry]

It's certainly The Year of the Long Knives against the EV revolution.

Electric vehicles have almost 80% more problems than gas-powered ones, Consumer Reports says

Electric vehicles have nearly 80% more problems and are generally less reliable than cars propelled by conventional internal combustion engines, according to a new report from Consumer Reports.

Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEV) have an even worse scorecard, with an average of almost 150% more problems, the consumer group found. By contrast, ordinary hybrid cars are a "bright spot," with about a quarter fewer problems than gas-powered cars, the analysis found.

Consumer Reports' latest vehicle reliability report comes as car buyers can take advantage of a federal tax credit worth up to $7,500 for purchasing an EV and as automakers roll out a host of new models. But consumers have been slower to adapt to EVs than expected, partly because they are often more expensive to maintain than traditional vehicles and require extra equipment, such as a home electric charging port.

"This story is really one of growing pains," said Jake Fisher, senior director of auto testing at Consumer Reports. "It's a story of just working out the bugs and the kinks of new technology."

The findings are based on a survey of Consumer Reports' members about problems they've had with their vehicles in the prior year. The current report included data on more than 330,000 vehicles made between 2000 to 2023, with a few reports about new 2024 models.

EV owners most frequently reported troubles with battery and charging systems, as well as flaws in how the vehicles' body panels and interior parts fit together. Consumer Reports noted that EV manufacturers are still learning to make completely new power systems, and it suggested that as they do the overall reliability of electric vehicles should improve.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/electric-v ... =251795045

"It's a story of just working out the bugs and the kinks of new technology." Where the body panels don't fit neatly from the factory? You can't blame that on "EV teething problems" Correctly fitting panels is a hangover from when cars were hand built. There are a plethora of other minor problems new buyers have encountered and if they had all been common knowledge many buyers would have thought twice, or at least given a car a comprehensive inspection on delivery. But who does that?

"By contrast, ordinary hybrid cars are a "bright spot" Well no surprise there, Look who makes them. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Kia, Hyundai. All the manufacturers that have been leading the world in quality design for decades.

[careinke]

Tesla held a private event celebrating the first delivery of the tesla truck from Texas. The Investment Answers moderator has an invite, and will be updating on Youtube. Here is his pre-video with a lot of stats and good info:

Cybertruck Day: Revolutionizing Automotive History!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAVtz0v95Ro

Here is his first look from inside the plant:

Tesla cybertruck up close and personal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUnl-Daqc6g

I'll post more as I get it.

PEACE

[careinke]

Hey All,

Here is the another great Youtube on the Tesla cyber truck/sportscar. A truly amazing vehicle!

Watch, you will not be disappointed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNOAuvewSwM

Peace

[theluckycountry]

[Pops]

Man, I saved up and bought an "official" NATO jerry cans and before I even got it to the truck I dropped the friggin plastic nozzle and it busted all to pieces. No wonder putin is kickin NATOs ass.

[theluckycountry]

I never found a JC nozzle that didn't leak! At home I use a siphon hose, I like to refuel my cars and bikes at home, it's good exercise lugging those cans about. I have an inline tap in the hose to prevent spills and use a special 15L plastic can on the bikes, one with an auto shutoff valve in the tip.

I have to hunt for exercise since I retired, life is too easy really.

[mousepad]

That's in Amboy, California. I just drove by it. What a coincidence.