[Cog]

Trump lives in Ibon's head 24/7 rent-free. LOL

[Subjectivist]

I know it is anecdotal, but I spent my childhood in integrated public schools and went to a tax supported integrated college. I don't recall the special needs class being full of african americans, quite the contrary in fact. I went to school with kids who ranged from dull to exceptional and that description of exceptional was not limited to asian and european descended students, nor were the dull students predominantly african descent.

The problem with aby IQ study is cultural context of the questions. Suburban and exurban african americans in my experience speak more or less standard english with a regional accent. Inner city african americans seem to pride themselves on speaking in slave decent patois, like some share cropper from 1866 rather than using standard english. When in my anecdotal experience they meet a standard english speaking african american they call them uncle tom or uppity or similair insults because they are integrating into the larger culture. I had a friend in college who was a student from Nigeria. She was a tiny person, 4'3" tall and very polite with an accent. She refused to go to Detroit, the closest large city to the school were were both attending, because th inner city folks there were hostile to her because she was attending a school of higher learning and used proper grammar even though her accent was unusual.

[Subjectivist]

So nature and nurture both play a role and as this thread is courageous enough to address this what kind of a government leadership do you think would be required to translate this into effective policy? One that is uniting or one that incites racial hatred?

What about apolicy instead that promotes intact families so poor kids in the inner city do not grow up in single parent families with just a female role model? It is well known that illegitimacy rates in inner cities shot way up when the Great Society decided that single mother would get many more benefits than two parent families. Instead of supporting just the most unfotunate they created a model where illegitimacy is rewarded.

What about a policy where poor parents are rewarded for kids that score well on using standard English grammar that the kids will need to get well paying jobs as adults?

What if instead of focusing on race we focus on what actually matters for a successful life in modern America?

[KaiserJeep]

Sub, I think the real original purpose of the thread was to discuss both racism and reverse racism, the government response that is supposed to "fix" the problem, and all-too-often, makes it worse.

I grew up on military bases in several US States and the island of Guam. But my last two years of public school were in Manassas, Virginia, where I graduated in 1969.

Military bases were in fact de-segregated by Dwight D. Eisenhower early enough that I cannot remember the distress that my Father (then a USCG Chief Petty Officer) described to me. He was so incensed by sharing base housing with minorities that he moved off base, signing his first mortgage in Metarie, LA. We lived in Metarie, and he worked at the Customs House, down in the French Quarter. Metarie was an all White suburb, that shared a stretch of border with another (I can't remember the name) that had Blacks and Creoles and Jamaicans, distinctly different but all non-White.

On Guam (grades 8/9/10 for me) the White kids were the minorities. Grades 1-6 had on-base housing paid for by the US Government, bigger kids got bussed to public schools off base, and it was a tough place full of gangs. There were Guamanian gangs, Phillipino gangs, and Black gangs. The White kids as a matter of self defense, clung togather and travelled in groups between classes, to avoid being killed or injured. We were effectively a gang, and "our" gang had Northern US, Southern US, Western US, and NYC accents.

In Virginia for grades 11/12, I attended a High School that was nominally "integrated". If you counted the Blacks and the Whites, there were almost equal sized groups of each. But all my classmates were White, with the exception being two "token" light Brown girls that were termed "Colored" in that day and time. The Black students had seperate classes, they changed on the half hour, and they were never present in the hallways at the same time as the White kids, who changed classes on the hour.

Classes were entrely segregated, and the Black kids were in 100% in the Work/Study curriculum, with different teachers, different courses, different textbooks, and different academic standards. White kids were allowed to choose either Work/Study (for those that were anticipating Blue Collar jobs) or "College Prep" (for those that would attend further schooling). YOU didn't choose which, by the way, your parents chose for you.

There were only a few exceptions to the segregated classes. For example, the PE courses were segregated, but the Basketball/Football/Baseball teams were not. This was because winning mattered, and everybody knew that you had to have Blacks playing to win against other teams that had Blacks.

I lived in Manassas again as an adult in the mid-1980's, and by then my former HS had morphed into the Jr HS, and was entirely and actually integrated. EVERYBODY in the school district had very high academic standards at that time, because there were many students whose parents were part of the US Government, by then Manassas was an outlying suburb of Washington DC.

By all appearances, government-mandated desegregation (a form of reverse racism) had succeeded in Manassas, VA. But downtown Washington DC, and parts of nearby Baltimore, MA still had huge issues with under-achieving Black students.

[KaiserJeep]

Let me say this: After thinking about it, the large accumulated family wealth disparity is associated almost exclusively with discrimination against minorities in housing and land ownership. (If I keep saying that, some of you may actually THINK about what I am saying.)

Trump COULD fix this. Few people understand more about the real estate business than Donald Trump.

I think the chances that he will fix it are slim. But he could.

[Ibon]

What if instead of focusing on race we focus on what actually matters for a successful life in modern America?

I agree. Your president doesn't. He wants to focus on race. It keeps him in the race.

[Plantagenet]

Let me say this: After thinking about it, the large accumulated family wealth disparity is associated almost exclusively with discrimination against minorities in housing and land ownership. (If I keep saying that, some of you may actually THINK about what I am saying.)

Trump COULD fix this. Few people understand more about the real estate business than Donald Trump.

I think the chances that he will fix it are slim. But he could.

?????

How could Trump fix the huge disparities between black and white family wealth? These are partly the products of decades of family patterns and history including inheritances, and partly the result of the individual successes or failures of people actually living today.

Lets give him credit----Trump has succeeded in cutting the unemployment rate in black areas to record lows----but IMHO its asking a bit much to expect him to fix the legacy of family wealth disparity that has existed for decades.

Cheers!

[Cog]

I'm getting the feeling that reparations are going to be suggested next to "fix" this.

[KaiserJeep]

Not at all. I believe that Trump could fix this three ways:

1) The power of the pulpit. If he stands up, identifies a problem with racial discrimination in housing, and demands that it be remedied, who is gonna oppose him? The Democrats? The Black Caucus in Congress? Maxine Waters? Barack Obama?

2) He can campaign on this issue, and win a second term as POTUS, by promising to fix this. Meanwhile, he could pull a boatload of minority votes away from the Democrats.

3) If all else fails, he can sign an Executive Order to end racial discrimination in housing.

...or even all three of the above. After all, he understands the Real Estate business, and has credibility on this issue.

[Plantagenet]

Not at all. I believe that Trump could fix this three ways:

1) The power of the pulpit. If he stands up, identifies a problem with racial discrimination in housing, and demands that it be remedied, who is gonna oppose him? The Democrats? The Black Caucus in Congress? Maxine Waters? Barack Obama?

2) He can campaign on this issue, and win a second term as POTUS, by promising to fix this. Meanwhile, he could pull a boatload of minority votes away from the Democrats.

3) If all else fails, he can sign an Executive Order to end racial discrimination in housing.

There is no need for Trump to issue an executive order. Congress has already enacted laws that end racial discrimination in housing. Its called the FAIR HOUSING ACT.

Fair_Housing_Act

The separation of races we see today is mostly not due to overt racial discrimination, but instead mainly reflects economic sorting due to different levels of family wealth and income. This is pretty simple to understand----when the average black family income is only 58% of the average white family income, white families on average are able to afford bigger houses in better neighborhoods with better schools and lower crime then black families on average, so better neighborhoods with bigger houses and better schools and low crime rates will mainly be populated by well-off white families. Racial discrimination has nothing to do with it. AND, if you look around a little bit, you'll find a few well-off black families living in most or all white neighborhoods in the USA, and a few poor whites living in the poorer mainly black neighborhoods. This confirms that the racial sorting we see today is actually driven by economics---not by racial discrimination.

Cheers!

[Outcast_Searcher]

The separation of races we see today is mostly not due to overt racial discrimination, but instead mainly reflects economic sorting due to different levels of family wealth and income. This is pretty simple to understand----when the average black family income is only 58% of the average white family income, white families on average are able to afford bigger houses in better neighborhoods with better schools and lower crime then black families on average, so better neighborhoods with bigger houses and better schools and low crime rates will mainly be populated by well-off white families. Racial discrimination has nothing to do with it. AND, if you look around a little bit, you'll find a few well-off black families living in most or all white neighborhoods in the USA, and a few poor whites living in the poorer mainly black neighborhoods. This confirms that the racial sorting we see today is actually driven by economics---not by racial discrimination.

This is certainly the theory (economic sorting) I've come across while reading about various things. It makes far more sense to me than assuming the US is a pack of racists.

First hit I got by googling "economic sorting in the US"

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/04/ ... ve/557060/

I've seen a book from the left demanding (what else) big income tax increases because people with means tend to seek out the best situations for themselves and their families that they can afford (and how dare they! ). Oh, and of course, how UNFAIR IS THAT -- and so big tax increases will make things more fair by relieving people of that income.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/08157 ... UTF8&psc=1

The title pretty much summarizes it:

Dream Hoarders: How the American Upper Middle Class Is Leaving Everyone Else in the Dust, Why That Is a Problem, and What to Do About It

So see KJ, it's all in how one perceives the unfairness. Others on the left see it merely as those who are "lucky" enough to earn a good income as being mean and unfair to everyone else -- not just people of other races.

[KaiserJeep]

Look, I related in this very thread my experiences with a modern real estate application, which was being used to illegally "redline" minority neighborhoods. TODAY.

I KNOW about LBJ's Fair Housing Act. The point is that is not working. Trump can address this with the Power of the Pulpit if he wishes. My guess being if he features this topic, all the networks carry his speech.

Anybody want to deny that most Whites don't want Minority neighbors "driving down home values"?

[Cog]

I would not deny this at all but not for the reason you stated. There is a strong correlation between percentage of black population, poverty and crime rates, and quality of schools. Which is why I studied the demographics of the town I live in now before I moved there. It is not the role of government to force me to live in a city that is more dangerous when I can afford to live in one that is not.

The economic and race issue can not be separated. A black neighbor of similar professional background and income is not going to drive down property values because his values are apt to be similar to mine. He has skin in the game. Plop down subsidized housing next to me and things start to change.

[KaiserJeep]

So Plant and Cog are both defending White racism by denying that is what it is, and making excuses for why these behaviors are not wrong.

Do any of the rest of you have opinions about race, minorities in your neighborhoods, or a system of mortgages and even house hunting software designed to keep "those people" in their place as opposed to yours?

Honestly, in the cold light of day, do you want to deny that White People are repressing Minorities in the USA? Or that most of those minorities are suffering economically because of such repression?

It seems to me that our government has already bent over backwards with various forms of reverse racism, and not made a dent in this. In fact, they have gone over the top, and created a backlash, which is why this thread was created - not to call attention to injustice for minorities, but to call attention to injustice for the White majority.

They might also, based on the HGP that they funded and didn't like the results of, be trying to fix inequalities that arise in the differing genetic heritage of the groups we have discussed. Which is why they decided that they didn't want to share the results of that research program that they spent billions of your dollars on, with you.

Now I have to be brutally frank with you. Even though there are some great and very affordable Lake Michigan beach houses in some pretty tough minority neighborhoods in Wisconsin, I am not going to be buying one. If it was just me, I wouldn't care a whole lot. But my wife and daughter have to both feel safe and feel that my grandkids are safe, or that beach will never get used by them.

[Plantagenet]

Anybody want to deny that most Whites don't want Minority neighbors "driving down home values"?

I wouldn't dream of suggesting I know what "most Whites" want or don't want. Short of taking a poll on the subject how would you ever know....and even then most people would just lie if asked about sensitive subjects like that.

But I do know what I see. And I see some well-off minority people living in mostly white well-off areas across the US. Even in your lilly white community of Nantucket there are minority people who own homes and are part of the the community, you know. You just have to have an open mind and not assume everyone around you is an evil racist and not see the world only in shades of black and white.


Your neighborhood isn't "redlined." Its just expensive.

Cheers!

[KaiserJeep]

Plant, your responses are ridiculous. In making them, however, you have provided a great and even classic example of why we have this problem. I'll even offer a personal opinion, which is that the majority of White people pretty much exactly share the opinions you have expressed.

That's why the problem exists. The people that are doing the very things that cause Minority oppression are denying what they are doing, don't really believe that they are the crux of the problem, and furthermore denying that a problem even exists.

When the second Civil War happens in the USA, you and your attitudes, and millions of other US citizens that share similar opinions, will have been the cause of the conflict.

Think about this. When expensive FF energy happens in the USA, the impacts will be different depending upon the economic circumstances of the people touched by the crisis. The 1% won't care at all, other than grumbling about taxes. The affluent Upper Middle and Middle Middle classes (almost all White) will be inconvenienced by less disposable income. The vulnerable Lower Middle and Lower classes will be the first to starve. They won't have anything to lose in the violent race war caused by your attitudes.

By that time, it will be too late to prevent violence. Now picture an angry Black Grandmother with an assault weapon, hunting for YOU.

[Plantagenet]

That's why the problem exists. The people that are doing the very things that cause Minority oppression are denying what they are doing, don't really believe that they are the crux of the problem, and furthermore denying that a problem even exists.

What exactly is it that White people do that you find so objectionable?

When the second Civil War happens in the USA, you and your attitudes, and millions of other US citizens that share similar opinions, will have been the cause of the conflict.

You're the one fantasizing about a second Civil War, not me.

Think about this. When expensive FF energy happens in the USA, the impacts will be different depending upon the economic circumstances of the people touched by the crisis. The 1% won't care at all, other than grumbling about taxes. The affluent Upper Middle and Middle Middle classes (almost all White) will be inconvenienced by less disposable income. The vulnerable Lower Middle and Lower classes will be the first to starve. They won't have anything to lose in the violent race war caused by your attitudes.

You're the one fantasizing about a violent race war, not me.

Now picture an angry Black Grandmother with an assault weapon, hunting for YOU.

Sorry. Since the angry Black Grandmother with an assault rifle is your fantasy, chances are she is hunting for you.

---------------------------------------------

Your violent fantasies of race wars and civil war and killer grandmothers are right out of a dystopian comic book about the horrible future. But if you turn the pages in the comic book, hopefully a super-hero will appear and save the day. Ka-POW! he punches out the killer grandmother. Ka-Boom he defeats the confederates and saves the day for the Rs. And Sha-ZAM he defuses the race war by teaching people that race is an out-of-date concept, and DNA make-up is the true biological measure of who we are.


Look OUT! Over THERE! Its a zombie black grandmother with an assault rifle! Ka-POW!

[KaiserJeep]

So you want to further deny your responsibility for the oppression, and don't feel like there will ever be any repercussions.

That seems really unlikely, 40 million Black people are not vanishing silently in the night.

[Plantagenet]

So you want to further deny your responsibility for the oppression...

I don't believe in the concept of "Group guilt." In fact, I think its a pernicious and harmful way to think about the world.

So if you think all white people are responsible for oppressing all black people, then you do believe in group guilt, and that means you should take the lead in talking about your own responsibility and your group's responsibility for racial oppression. KJ---Please explain how you, as a typical white person, have oppressed black people....what evil racist things have you done, exactly, that you are so guilty about?

don't feel like there will ever be any repercussions....That seems really unlikely, 40 million Black people are not vanishing silently in the night.

As I said above, I think your prediction of a coming race war in the USA is a bizarre fantasy. However, if you think its going to happen, then please explain why you think 40 million black people are going to drop everything they've got going on to come after you?


Get that squad of black grandmothers with the assault rifles over here now....KJ is right over there!

Cheers!

[KaiserJeep]

I don't think they are coming after those who understand their problems and are trying to help. I think they are coming after the smug white people who don't think there is even a problem.