[Plantagenet]

I don't think they are coming after those who understand their problems and are trying to help. I think they are coming after the smug white people who don't think there is even a problem.

So you'll be OK once your imaginary race war starts because you understand the problems of Blacks? And in your fantasy Vengeance will only be taken against those White People who don't understand?

Hmmm. Well in that case, Could you teach me what to say just in case a race war happens? Just in case----I'd like to know what to say so I can pass as someone who understands the problems of blacks if I wind up in front of a self-appointed tribunal.

Cheers!

[Cog]

Yeah I want to be safe too. Will my MAGA hat be ok to wear?

All kidding aside, I've not met any what you call real oppressors of black people. People that go out of the way to hurt blacks in employment or housing. I know people who fear blacks as a group but like blacks as individuals. I would say most white people are at most indifferent to what goes on with black people as long as it doesn't affect their world.

Doesn't sound much like oppression to me. But if blacks or anyone else wants to shoot at me for some perceived harm, I'm willing to return the favor. Barring that I prefer to be left alone to tend to my affairs.

[KaiserJeep]

Fair enough comments, and I'm done with this topic, understanding that some of you will not ever accept evidence contradicting your preconceptions. But I will state the opinion that most Whites are quietly, covertly repressing Blacks. Obviously most forms of overt discrimination are illegal. Yet they are still living segregated from their oppressors in miserable conditions, here in this country and here in this time. Pretending that they are not being repressed, or that they have equal opportunities when housing discrimination and mortgage discrimination strips from them even the possibility of retaining 2/3rd of the wealth that the majority racial group can accumulate, is not helping the situation.

This thread seems to be coming to a natural end. But those of you who have in other threads demonstrated that you are believers in and even champions of Science have stayed out of the fray. I believe that has more to do with political correctness than anything else. The facts are that Science in this country is funded by the politicians, largely the Federal politicians. The repressed results of the HGP are the clearest example of the role that PC plays in Science that I know of. The fact that scientific findings that are not PC are excluded from popular publications, open discussion in the media, and even (for many of you) open discussion here in the peakoil forums, should be food for thought, because it simply isn't dispassionate and unbiased Science.

Another prime example is AGW and Climate Change, although it's probably the last thing that any of you would admit. However the allocation of funds to various research topics related to AGW/CC is very different under Donald Trump than it was under Obama or Bubba Clinton. Bush was by comparison to any of the others relatively even-handed in climate funding, more or less because he was preoccupied by the events that followed 9/11/2001. Don't think that the guidelines used to award or deny funding don't effect the published results either. Note that I am not saying that the Science or the Scientists are corrupted by money - only that the published results get skewed by who the funds are awarded to, plus their anticipated conclusions as started in the grant proposals.

Because, you see, the definition of PC also changes with the party in the White House.

[Outcast_Searcher]

Fair enough comments, and I'm done with this topic, understanding that some of you will not ever accept evidence contradicting your preconceptions.

Kind of like you with AGW? Funny how that works.

But of course, only you can be right about either this issue or AGW.

[Outcast_Searcher]

I don't think they are coming after those who understand their problems and are trying to help. I think they are coming after the smug white people who don't think there is even a problem.

So you'll be OK once your imaginary race war starts because you understand the problems of Blacks? And in your fantasy Vengeance will only be taken against those White People who don't understand?

Hmmm. Well in that case, Could you teach me what to say just in case a race war happens? Just in case----I'd like to know what to say so I can pass as someone who understands the problems of blacks if I wind up in front of a self-appointed tribunal.
Cheers!

My plan, when living in a 98%ish black neighborhood, as a (at least in intent) non-racist white guy, was to fit in, which happily meant just being myself.

I liked living cheaply, so I tended to look/act poorer than the average person in my area. I figured if the "anti-rich" revolution ever started, when a large group of people with pitchforks and torches showed up at my door, I'd say. "Yeah! Somebody ought to go GET those rich dudes!".

No idea how viable that plan was, but it seemed better than running around spending (and thus displaying) nearly every dime I could get my hands on, which seems to be the financial plan of choice for a significant majority of Americans, white or otherwise.

[Plantagenet]

My plan, when living in a 98%ish black neighborhood, as a (at least in intent) non-racist white guy, was to fit in, which happily meant just being myself.

I've also lived in ghettos because the rent was cheap and I wasn't making much money --- both in an east coast urban setting and in a major west coast city. But I never was under any illusion that I "fit in." Both ghettos were high crime areas. I got on my bike and rode to the University in the morning, and at night I'd come home and bring the bike inside the house and lock all the doors and windows. A guy was mugged and murdered just a couple of blocks from apartment in the east coast city while I was living there, and my next door neighbor was raped in the west coast city. She came to my house for help afterward, and I waited with her until the police came. I moved out soon after that.

I figured if the "anti-rich" revolution ever started, when a large group of people with pitchforks and torches showed up at my door, I'd say. "Yeah! Somebody ought to go GET those rich dudes!".

Both you and KJ seem to think you'll be able to reason with angry people carrying pitchforks and torches who come knocking on your door while in a state of mob hysteria. But history is full of examples of murderous riots where reason was worthless----from 1000 years of anti-semitic pogroms in Europe and the middle east to anti-Chinese riots in Indonesia to anti-Muslim and anti-Sikh and anti-Hindu riots in India and Pakistan to race riots in the US----this long history of riots shows that angry people in mobs definitely aren't in the mood to talk or reason. They just want to kill and destroy whatever the "other" is that they currently hate.


Kill the FILL-IN-BLANK-HERE. Burn their houses! Rape their wives and daughters! Get them!

[Outcast_Searcher]

I've also lived in ghettos because the rent was cheap and I wasn't making much money --- both in an east coast urban setting and in a major west coast city. But I never was under any illusion that I "fit in." Both ghettos were high crime areas. I got on my bike and rode to the University in the morning, and at night I'd come home and bring the bike inside the house and lock all the doors and windows. A guy was mugged and murdered just a couple of blocks from apartment in the east coast city while I was living there, and my next door neighbor was raped in the west coast city. She came to my house for help afterward, and I waited with her until the police came. I moved out soon after that.

Well I have plenty of stories from the 31 years spent in my former (basically) ghetto neighborhood.

But for every scary or harsh story, I have scores of good ones. (Should be hundreds, but my memory fades).

We had murders. Bullets flying sometimes. The occasional large gang (obvious gang uniforms) carrying clubs (scared the crap out of me the first time I saw such a gang walk by me until I was sure they were ignoring me).

So should everyone with any money quickly run far away from any neighborhood like that? Just leave all the problems of racial tension and misperception to someone else to deal with?

I didn't want to do that. Besides, it's still my opinion that as far as much of the social perception between races went that I'd observed, things had improved markedly in the past few decades, despite things being far from ideal.

...

I did finally leave, but that was because the maintenance in my building was becoming nonexistent under the new owner. Someone needed to live in my recently deceased parents' house, or I had to sell it. I decided I'd done my "shift" after 31 years there.

I don't believe in religious ideas like an afterlife. If there were one, I might get my ass repeatedly kicked for being stupid, being careless, being scared, lazy, etc. But I honestly don't think being "racist" would be on my list of crimes. OTOH, maybe I'll get some more kicks for daring to believe that.

[Outcast_Searcher]

Both you and KJ seem to think you'll be able to reason with angry people carrying pitchforks and torches who come knocking on your door while in a state of mob hysteria.

And you might be right that I'd immediately be killed in that scenario. Maybe I'm just naive. But given how I got along with my neighbors, my assumption is when they came knocking they'd be inviting me to join them, as aside from my skin color, I lived and behaved socially, just like the average person living there.

So I could be wrong, but I'm not just making an assumption based on a pure abstraction with no experience/history for the neighborhood I was mentioning.

...

Now, when we had the occasional race riots/large disturbances downtown because a white cop had shot some black suspect, when I went out the next day or two I had my pistol in my glove compartment. (Legal in KY). Because I wasn't going to have a bunch of people drag me out of my car and beat me to death (without giving them pause) because I happened to be white. I was NOT silly enough to assume things would be so benign in a neighborhood I had no history in.

[dissident]

All this bleeding of the heart about slavery and minority oppression is way past its expiry date. People who are not living through the Hell of the past are not engaged in righteous activity today trying to fight some race war in the name of their ancestors. Also, if we are going to talk about slavery then only the real blacks are victims and not every other minority, especially the white slavers from the Middle East and North Africa:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade

Slavery is still alive and well in these parts. But PC totalitarians would have you believe that only whites are collectively guilty of slavery. F*O*A*D, scum. My ancestors did not own any black slaves and their society did not engage in black slavery. Trying to pin some BS American collective guilt on me is grotesque and absurd.

In fact, even in America the vast majority of whites had nothing to do with black slavery. Plantation owners represented the 1% of their day. All the yapping about white privilege is obscene given that a big reason for the problems of the 'hood are the locals opting out of trying. Because whitey. If you don't get an education and think you are oppressed, you will never succeed at living a normal life. You are not entitled to a good job without having tried to gain any skills. And it ain't whitey who is robbing you of your entitlements, it is you yourself for wallowing in victimhood based on events long ago.

[KaiserJeep]

You assume that because it hasn't happened yet, that it is not going to happen. But I remember many days of violence in the inner city areas during my lifetime. Nowadays with our network and mobile devices, all it takes is some trigger event like the Rodney King beating, and violence will erupt in all these areas with Black populations.

The groundwork for such an insurrection would be the worsening conditions as the pinch of the Oil Peak is felt. Like I said before, the impoverished lower income classes feel this first. Not to mention, there would be widespread famine and a worsening refugee crisis outside the USA.

Both the Oil Peak and the worsening refugee crisis are already happening, because the distribution of the remaining "stuff" as things run out never was even and fair, and now is getting even less even and fair. The sight of bodies in the streets of Africa will soon follow.

Meanwhile, anybody who believes that American Blacks do not suffer from continuing repression, racism, and worsening economic conditions, hasn't been reading the details of this thread. I have suggested that you continue to ignore such things at your peril. Because when the rioting begins, they are simply going to look at the color of your skin to identify their oppressors. They won't be checking for a record of anti-racism or liberal ideals.

[SeaGypsy]

What is the usefulness of this diatribe KJ? Aren't you & your relatives moving into a space doughnut anyhow?

Can't you see what others here are saying- you are deeply racist- you project American blacks as basically sitting around in ghettos waiting for an excuse to venge out on the whitey. My first guess would be you have never had a black friend, have never been in a black family's home. You are talking clichéd stereotype nonsense, pointless at that.

[Cog]

KJ
You can not view blacks as a monolithic group no more than you can view whites that way. During the LA and Ferguson riots, the majority of blacks were not participants and we're just as scared about it happening as the whites hunkered down in suburbia. Outside the gang banging drug dealing element, which do most of the violence in black inner cities, the rest get up and go to work just like everyone else.
There are times when blacks will specifically target whites in robberies or just a beat down. But the majority of victims of crime in the inner cities are black on black crime. Blacks aren't stupid and understand this reality very well.

Do you think the black orthopedic surgeon I consulted with on my shoulder wants to beat me up? At most, I wouldn't get invited to his house because I guarantee he is way above me in social class.

[Ibon]

KJ
You can not view blacks as a monolithic group no more than you can view whites that way. During the LA and Ferguson riots, the majority of blacks were not participants and we're just as scared about it happening as the whites hunkered down in suburbia. Outside the gang banging drug dealing element, which do most of the violence in black inner cities, the rest get up and go to work just like everyone else.
There are times when blacks will specifically target whites in robberies or just a beat down. But the majority of victims of crime in the inner cities are black on black crime. Blacks aren't stupid and understand this reality very well.

Cog, you are spot on with your post and I congratulate you. But since you are one of my pet projects on this site I have to gently ask you why do you not practice what you preach. You, more than anyone else on this site, treat the left as a monolithic group claiming them to be a bunch of commies.

You do exactly the same as what you claim KJ is doing here. Think about it. I don't require a rebuttal from you. Just think about it without making any comment.

[KaiserJeep]

What is the usefulness of this diatribe KJ? Aren't you & your relatives moving into a space doughnut anyhow?

Can't you see what others here are saying- you are deeply racist- you project American blacks as basically sitting around in ghettos waiting for an excuse to venge out on the whitey. My first guess would be you have never had a black friend, have never been in a black family's home. You are talking clichéd stereotype nonsense, pointless at that.

Er - no, not planning on entering space. Simply planning on educating the grandkids to be open-minded in that regard.

However, these arrogant White people in this thread are not only denying reality, and a growing wealth disparity, but they are insisting in the face of the economic figures I supplied that Blacks are better off and things are improving for them.

This hardly matters to ME. I live in a fully integrated community here in Silly Valley, and will move to another on Nantucket Island. But the USA's inner cities have worsening problems and are already the most disadvantaged places in the country. Some would have you believe that is not a problem.

Well, it IS a problem. Now the Reverse Racism imposed in various forms by our governments - mostly the Federal government - is so over-the-top that it is creating a backlash among the majority population, which is the topic of this thread.

[Plantagenet]

KJ...- you are deeply racist- you project American blacks as basically sitting around in ghettos waiting for an excuse to venge out on the whitey. My first guess would be you have never had a black friend, have never been in a black family's home. You are talking clichéd stereotype nonsense, pointless at that.

An excellent point, SeaGypsy. And I notice that KJ didn't respond to your point.

the USA's inner cities have worsening problems and are already the most disadvantaged places in the country. Some would have you believe that is not a problem.

Thats an absurd straw man argument. Everyone agrees the ghettos in US inner cities are an economic disaster zone and a disgrace. There are entire threads discussing this issue here on this very site. I suggest you go look at them before claiming people don't see the problems in the inner city.

the Reverse Racism imposed in various forms by our governments - mostly the Federal government - is so over-the-top that it is creating a backlash among the majority population, which is the topic of this thread.

Racial discrimination is inherently unjust and unconstitutional. The federal government never should have endorsed the idea that its OK to disadvantage one group of people in order to discriminate in favor of another group of people just on the basis of their skin color. It was wrong before the civil war when the Ds wrote laws legalizing slavery, it was wrong after the civil war when the Ds set up segregation and jim crow laws to benefit whites, and its wrong now when the Ds set up affirmative action to benefit blacks. The Ds have been consistently wrong on this issue for 200+ years now.

Cheers!

[evilgenius]

KJ...- you are deeply racist- you project American blacks as basically sitting around in ghettos waiting for an excuse to venge out on the whitey. My first guess would be you have never had a black friend, have never been in a black family's home. You are talking clichéd stereotype nonsense, pointless at that.

An excellent point, SeaGypsy. And I notice that KJ didn't respond to your point.

the USA's inner cities have worsening problems and are already the most disadvantaged places in the country. Some would have you believe that is not a problem.

Thats an absurd straw man argument. Everyone agrees the ghettos in US inner cities are an economic disaster zone and a disgrace. There are entire threads discussing this issue here on this very site. I suggest you go look at them before claiming people don't see the problems in the inner city.

the Reverse Racism imposed in various forms by our governments - mostly the Federal government - is so over-the-top that it is creating a backlash among the majority population, which is the topic of this thread.

Racial discrimination is inherently unjust and unconstitutional. The federal government never should have endorsed the idea that its OK to disadvantage one group of people in order to discriminate in favor of another group of people just on the basis of their skin color. It was wrong before the civil war when the Ds wrote laws legalizing slavery, it was wrong after the civil war when the Ds set up segregation and jim crow laws to benefit whites, and its wrong now when the Ds set up affirmative action to benefit blacks. The Ds have been consistently wrong on this issue for 200+ years now.

Cheers!

Doesn't that issue rise to the fore in the instance of corporate vs. private life? That is, when corporations are treated as people, it becomes possible for corporate entities to achieve greater political power than any individual entity could. It's just what you get with division of labor and other principles allowing for corporate entities to get things done which individuals might not, even if they could concentrate upon it. The question I have is whether we ought to see this as a message to disempower corporations or to empower individuals?

[Cog]

Eliminate the question of race from any job application, college admission, Form 4473 to purchase a firearm etc.. The fact you even ask the question is racist. Make everything merit based and the reverse discrimination problems end and so does the claim to victim status. If Asians, who have a higher IQ than whites get more slots at MIT based on merit, why should that make me angry? Bust your ass and earn your place in society based on merit not some artificial thing called race.

[Cog]

KJ...- you are deeply racist- you project American blacks as basically sitting around in ghettos waiting for an excuse to venge out on the whitey. My first guess would be you have never had a black friend, have never been in a black family's home. You are talking clichéd stereotype nonsense, pointless at that.

An excellent point, SeaGypsy. And I notice that KJ didn't respond to your point.

the USA's inner cities have worsening problems and are already the most disadvantaged places in the country. Some would have you believe that is not a problem.

Thats an absurd straw man argument. Everyone agrees the ghettos in US inner cities are an economic disaster zone and a disgrace. There are entire threads discussing this issue here on this very site. I suggest you go look at them before claiming people don't see the problems in the inner city.

the Reverse Racism imposed in various forms by our governments - mostly the Federal government - is so over-the-top that it is creating a backlash among the majority population, which is the topic of this thread.

Racial discrimination is inherently unjust and unconstitutional. The federal government never should have endorsed the idea that its OK to disadvantage one group of people in order to discriminate in favor of another group of people just on the basis of their skin color. It was wrong before the civil war when the Ds wrote laws legalizing slavery, it was wrong after the civil war when the Ds set up segregation and jim crow laws to benefit whites, and its wrong now when the Ds set up affirmative action to benefit blacks. The Ds have been consistently wrong on this issue for 200+ years now.

Cheers!

Doesn't that issue rise to the fore in the instance of corporate vs. private life? That is, when corporations are treated as people. It becomes possible for corporate entities to achieve greater political power than any individual entity could. It's just what you get with division of labor and other principles allowing for corporate entities to get things done which individuals might not, even if they could concentrate upon it. The question I have is whether we ought to see this as a message to disempower corporations or to empower individuals?

Corporations have personhood as far as SCOTUS is concerned. That is well established law going back to the 1800's. You want unions to have personhood and have the ability to express first amendment rights but don't want corporations to have that same right? WTF?

[KaiserJeep]

You are all over the map on this issue, fellow members.

As unfair as is our government's response to very real racism in the USA today, they at least have recognized that a problem exists and are attempting to solve it, however misguided their response to the problem has been. Reverse racism in all it's forms does not at least commit the ultimate racist act, denial that a problem exists. Yet many of you are awash in denials, revealing yourselves for what you are.

No, as a matter of principle, I do not respond to accusations of racism applied to me. Nor do I make specific accusations at others, because words are tools not weapons and the term "racist" is used far too much already. Instead I will appeal to your reason. If we were in a true post-racist society, this thread would not be necessary. The reverse racism actions of our government would not be necessary. All of you would not already have preconceived opinions on the matter of racism, and you would not be posturing and blustering now.

Sadly, that's not the case. Now I want to make a specific request. Think deeply before your next posting on this very real problem. Say something worthy of the intellect that you display on other topics around here. Because racism in the USA is very real, as it is in the handful of other countries I have visited.

Not only is racism real, but it is also worsening as time passes. I believe that under typical circumstances the issue is so charged with emotion as to preclude a meaningful discussion. I hoped that we could have such, here and now, after we overcame both the emotion and the preconceived positions.

[Ibon]

Not only is racism real, but it is also worsening as time passes. I believe that under typical circumstances the issue is so charged with emotion as to preclude a meaningful discussion. I hoped that we could have such, here and now, after we overcame both the emotion and the preconceived positions.

It was especially my one daughter, who is a person of color and who immersed herself deeply into the topic of racism in America and African American history who opened my eyes and forced me to confront my own racist sentiments in the words and language I used. Every single American, and nobody is spared,grew up with the awareness of race, with the stereotypes that were reinforced, with sentiments of racism. A black man and a white man in America cannot easily put aside the hyper awareness of race when meeting. You cannot disregard the legacy and it does not disappear in a generation. This is part of the American experience.

KJ, it is not possible to have a meaningful discussion with folks who hitch all their beliefs on to the wagon of individualism and that the state has absolutely no place to provide measured benefits and incentives to right the wrong of our racist legacy. It is no coincidence that this group are the most vehement in proclaiming that they themselves are not racist.