[Plantagenet]

Reverse racism in all it's forms does not at least commit the ultimate racist act, denial that a problem exists.

Yes it does. Reverse racism requires a denial that racism is a problem. Reverse racism says its OK to be racists as long you discriminate against White men and Asians purely on the basis of skin color in order to benefit other Blacks because of their skin color.

Its really beyond me why you think its OK for the government to discriminate against people solely on the basis of their skin color. What you are supporting is racism, plain and simple. You just think its OK because its racism against whites and asians.

racism .... is also worsening as time passes.

Have you already forgotten the bad old 20th century? Baseball used to be segregated....black atheletes were excluded purely on the basis of their skin color. So was basketball.....BASKETBALL....can you believe it, was segregated both at the collegiate level and at the pro level. And so, for that matter, were schools and college and universities in the south due to segregation laws passed the Ds who controlled those states. There were no black justices on the SCOTUS. There were almost no black doctors or lawyers either. There were almost no blacks on TV. There were almost no blacks in the movies. Even the Army was segregated. It was a disgrace.

There were no black governors. There were no black Senators, almost no blacks in the Congress, and surely no black President.

Thats all changed for the better. Why can't you see that? I'm amazed that you won't acknowledge that some progress is being made.


Cheers!

[Cog]

The same party that nurtured slavery in the South, is the same party that continues to use it for their advantage.

[KaiserJeep]

Plant, your very denials are sickening in their desperate insistence that there is no problem and things are constantly improving.

I did in fact buy my first house in Elgin, when I worked in nearby Schaumburg, both in the greater Chicago area. It was a diverse area that I could afford then. Whites were outnumbered by Hispanics, and there were large numbers of Asians and Blacks as well. Then I lived in Manassas, VA - very segregated in housing. Then Silicon Valley, very desegregated, but curiously with very few Blacks. I have never to my knowledge, done anything to contribute to the problem I am talking about, least of all by denying any problem exists.

This problem will be over when the lines on this chart merge together:

....and it's not "improving" until the lines begin to converge versus diverging.

[Plantagenet]

This problem will be over when the lines on this chart merge together:

KJ-----I don't think implementing federal policies that result in reverse discrimination against white Americans and asian Americans to bring their family wealth down to the level of black Americans is the way to go.

IMHO We'd be much better off with a level, fair and color-blind economic system that allows all people an equal chance to succeed, regardless of their skin color.

Cheers!

[KaiserJeep]

Then again, I never prescribed any particular solution. Additionally I disparaged the government's reverse racism efforts.

The only thing I insist upon is a recognition that a racism problem exists still in the USA, that it is worsening as time passes, and that eventually another civil war may be the result of such worsening conditions. I believe that is what the available evidence indicates.

It is an injustice in a country that prides itself on the freedom from injustices. It is a problem worthy of attention, and of resolution, no matter the cost.

[Plantagenet]

The only thing I insist upon is a recognition that a racism problem exists still in the USA... It is a problem worthy of attention, and of resolution, no matter the cost.

I totally agree with that.

I just disagree with the idea that the way to end racial discrimination against blacks is to have the government engage in racial discrimination against whites and Asians.

Here's a radical idea---how about if our government abandons the whole idea of race based preferences altogether. We've had slavery for roughly a hundred years, and then we had segregation and jim crow laws and discrimination against blacks for about a hundred years, and for 50 years we've had affirmative action and racial set-asides mandating discrimination against whites and Asians.

Martin Luther King called for people not to be judged by the color of their skins. But somewhere his idea was abandoned and the government went right on judging people and hiring people and discriminating against purely on the basis of the color of the skins---they just shifted which skin color was in favor.

Maybe its time to try having no government mandated racial preferences and having everybody treated equally on a color-blind basis..... After all, thats what everybody says they ultimately want.

Cheers!

[KaiserJeep]

The racial wealth disparity is a combination of two things:

2/3rds of it is derived from housing discrimination, because people of color are - in many cases in many places - excluded from "good" neighborhoods where housing appreciates and where they can get low cost, prime mortgages. This happens because of White bigots who discriminate against them, and these bigots are found in both the homes in the "good" neighborhood and at the mortgage lender. This housing discrimination still happens even though it is illegal under the Fair Housing Act, because the FHA is rarely enforced. That would be because the majority who live in "good" neighborhoods and who are not minorities, don't want such enforcement.

The remaining 1/3 of the disparity is because - according to Federal stats - there has been zero improvement in the salary disparity between Whites and Minorities in the last 25 years. Whites are hired in higher numbers and higher initial salaries than Minorities, and get promoted and get raises faster. One reason for this is average education levels - Minorities are more likely to have Blue Collar vocational training, and Whites more likely to have college degrees suitable for White Collar jobs. This remains true even after decades of Affirmative Action in admissions, and the resulting widespread admission of less qualified minority students to colleges and universities. Fewer Minorities make it all the way to graduation, and face it - they are less able than those that can compete without AA in admissions.

Now, Plant, you are proposing that we end AA and other forms of race-based preferences. I understand why you want that, it's fundamentally unfair. However, that proposal is most likely to widen the wealth disparity, not shrink it. Got any ideas that might actually help achieve the objective?

Because, you see, I think the basic problem is White bigotry, leading to housing and education discrimination against Minorities. Without any doubt, the various Reverse Racism actions of the governments are intended to end such discrimination, and they are simply not working because people like you refuse to acknowledge the nature of the problem, which is racial prejudices.

Pragmaticly speaking, a poor solution is a heck of a lot better than none. So what would YOU do in lieu of Reverse Racism, to end the racial wealth disparity?

[Plantagenet]

Now, Plant, you are proposing that we end AA and other forms of race-based preferences. I understand why you want that, it's fundamentally unfair. However, that proposal is most likely to widen the wealth disparity, not shrink it.

I disagree.

I can think of few things more psychologically harmful to a group of people then to be told by the government that they can't compete on an equal playing field with other people because of their skin color, so they must be given special preferences to "help" them.

Thats poison, that kind of thinking. That just encourages people to blame racism when they fail, rather then doing needed self-criticism. It would be far better, IMHO, to encourage people to take personal responsibility for their lives and try as hard as they can to get a good education and get a good job. We need black people willing to work their butts off to succeed, just like Asians work their butts off to succeed.

I think the basic problem is White bigotry, leading to housing and education discrimination against Minorities.

I don't see it. Yes, blacks often live in run down inner cities with bad schools, but these days those areas are typically governed by black elected officials and school board authorities. Trying to blame "White bigotry" for mismanagement and poor government in cities run by black officials and white D liberals doesn't make any sense at all.

Its obvious what blacks have to do to succeed in America. If they'd just do this one thing, I can guarantee their incomes and family wealth would surpass that of whites in a couple of generations.


What blacks should do is be more like Asians---work their butts off in school and succeed.



Cheers!

[KaiserJeep]

This is no longer humorous. I have explained more than once in recent messages that Minorities don't have problems in the USA because of what THEY do or don't do. The available evidence says that their problems arise from the way the White majority treats them. Housing discrimination, mortgage discrinination, and the lack of job opportunities don't happen TO THEM because of them, rather they happen because of the attitudes and actions of the White majority.

To be frank, the worst problem they have is their skin color not being White. That is followed closely by another problem, people such as yourself who blame THEM for their condition, and in fact insist that their lack of success is their own fault. That would be an egregious form of racism that is just as offensive as concealing your identity under a set of robes while committing acts of domestic terrorism intended to suppress minorities. Covert racism is of course aimed at racial discrimination without consequences to those that perform such acts. It is vile and pernicious and widespread. It is also not limited to the White race, I have met many bigots of many skin tones.

I am reluctantly forced to endorse Ibon's opinion of you, as expressed earlier in this thread.

[Plantagenet]

I am reluctantly forced to endorse Ibon's opinion of you, as expressed earlier in this thread.

In that case, I will second SeaGypsy's opinion of you, as expressed earlier in this thread.

Cheers!

[SeaGypsy]

To which KJ responded fairly, though my description may have been unfair. (Was an off the cuff remark not having read back the full context of the thread/ I've been absent a lot from here lately).

I see both sides here & I'm learning things from both. Personally i strongly believe that the apple rarely falls far from the tree. I've two daughters, half Asian, both very attractive & bright. At the point they start dating, by far the main concern i would have about suitors is what kind of parents they had, & race would be of virtually no consideration, profession only slightly higher. I would want my daughters to be involved with men of character, of ethics. If their parents abused them, got drunk & stoned & spent long periods of time unemployed- it is extremely unlikely i would sanction a relationship between their child & mine. If they were sober, morally upright, good working folks then i wouldn't have a basis in my own ethics to disagree, so i would not.

So, what can the State do about shitty families raising shitty kids? Isn't that the real question? Ok the shittiness often relates to circumstances of race, of racism, but there's shitty drugged out abusive bludgers of white & black families, there's racist folks using racism as their excuse for living shitty lives & raising shitty children on both sides also.

I'm going to raise something- what if race was removed from affirmative action, but affirmative action was increased- to support & encourage kids who determined to get out & away from their shitty families?

An even more radical direct action would be a massive increase in permanent removal & adoption, not foster care shuffling kids around then booting them to the streets at 18.

Of course both are political hot potatoes. But it seems to me that if you want better people, you need better parents. Also like Baha, my philosophy is that staying in a shitty environment because you were born there is pathetic.

[KaiserJeep]

I'll see you that and raise you one. When my only daughter brought home a series of unimpressive boyfriends, I witheld my approval. Then she found one with a better character, and I approved.

Which is how a hardware engineer with 35 years in the business became the Father-In-Law of a software guy. It was an act of extreme tolerance.

Sea Gypsy, you make an excellant point about bad parenting. The typical inner city kid has one parent or none. I suppose that is where the Democrats got their slogan, "it takes a village to raise a kid". Which actually offends me, because my own parents did a good job with six kids, and I like to think I did the same with my one kid.

[evilgenius]

To which KJ responded fairly, though my description may have been unfair. (Was an off the cuff remark not having read back the full context of the thread/ I've been absent a lot from here lately).

I see both sides here & I'm learning things from both. Personally i strongly believe that the apple rarely falls far from the tree. I've two daughters, half Asian, both very attractive & bright. At the point they start dating, by far the main concern i would have about suitors is what kind of parents they had, & race would be of virtually no consideration, profession only slightly higher. I would want my daughters to be involved with men of character, of ethics. If their parents abused them, got drunk & stoned & spent long periods of time unemployed- it is extremely unlikely i would sanction a relationship between their child & mine. If they were sober, morally upright, good working folks then i wouldn't have a basis in my own ethics to disagree, so i would not.

So, what can the State do about shitty families raising shitty kids? Isn't that the real question? Ok the shittiness often relates to circumstances of race, of racism, but there's shitty drugged out abusive bludgers of white & black families, there's racist folks using racism as their excuse for living shitty lives & raising shitty children on both sides also.

I'm going to raise something- what if race was removed from affirmative action, but affirmative action was increased- to support & encourage kids who determined to get out & away from their shitty families?

An even more radical direct action would be a massive increase in permanent removal & adoption, not foster care shuffling kids around then booting them to the streets at 18.

Of course both are political hot potatoes. But it seems to me that if you want better people, you need better parents. Also like Baha, my philosophy is that staying in a shitty environment because you were born there is pathetic.

I too think that is the question. Racism is systemic. It doesn't just come organically from here and now observation, though it does. It also comes from set positions out of which it is nearly impossible in society to correct from. The main one is how we are raised. That's where most of the assumptions that continue these things get embedded. And that's not only parents, but peers. And it can't be that you were just not taught how to be a problem. If you don't learn how to act properly toward your fellow man, to respect them, then you most likely will wind up contributing.

Oh, and Cog, I didn't mean to imply that unions ought to rise up to the same level of personhood as the Supreme Court says corporations hold. What I was talking about is the rise of the independent contractor within our economy. Though they are more directly capitalist contributors they also introduce some problems society ought to be discussing, such as the extent of price discovery and what constitutes an arms length negotiation. Aren't they really a form of sole proprietorship, and thus have some of those same corporate personhood rights as what we have come to ascribe to true corporations? They can't act out of the power of economy of scale, but they can act out of that basic legal status. You don't need collective bargaining if you have the law. The law regarding these things was never going to entirely join with an employee per se. That is, essentially, like expecting the patriarch to will his estate to the hireling. Independent contracting, and what it will evolve into, could be something else entirely. It's about changing the nature of business to a cooperative one over time. Many businesses involved working toward the same goal, where agency may be transferable and the role of guiding the enterprise less certainly placed into the hands of a single group or person.

[Plantagenet]

bad parenting....

This is clearly an important cause of the dysfunction in America today.

Absent fathers are the norm today in inner city communities. About 70% of all births in the inner city are to single moms. The absence of fathers mostly means the absence of role models for young men in their own families, the absence of principal breadwinner, and the absence of long term stability in the family. Traditional families are rare in the inner city, and traditional "good parenting" in a two-parent family is mostly absent.

black-family-single-parent-predominance

1. entrenched, multigenerational poverty is largely black; and 2. it is intricately intertwined with the collapse of the nuclear family in the inner city.

Cheers!

[Outcast_Searcher]

bad parenting....

This is clearly an important cause of the dysfunction in America today.

Absent fathers are the norm today in inner city communities. About 70% of all births in the inner city are to single moms. The absence of fathers mostly means the absence of role models for young men in their own families, the absence of principal breadwinner, and the absence of long term stability in the family. Traditional families are rare in the inner city, and traditional "good parenting" in a two-parent family is mostly absent.

black-family-single-parent-predominance

1. entrenched, multigenerational poverty is largely black; and 2. it is intricately intertwined with the collapse of the nuclear family in the inner city.

Cheers!

Yup. But this is an example of a cultural thing. Blaming it on "white racists", "rich white people", etc. as KJ's overall theme seems to (roughly) tend to do isn't addressing the root problem at all.

It might very consistently (and highly conveniently) score a lot of political points among certain groups, and thus buy a lot of votes for a certain party, of course. But I don't see it coming even close to meaningfully help solve the underlying problem.

...

As an aside, the nuclear family, as in that tight knit idealistic US centric entity in various 50's and 60's and even 70's and 80's to some degree sitcoms isn't exactly going great guns generally. The desirability of marriage, the definition of marriage, technology re having children, etc. are all changing a LOT over time.

Is this racist too? Is this the fault of rich white men too? Or is this just an example of the world changing as technology changes, just as it has since, say, the 1300's (which is back as far as the bulk of my formal history education that I can remember well, goes)?

I'll go with technology over a widespread, persistent, racial conspiracy.

(As an aside, the first big picture thing that dawned on me in college was that ALL the major institutions affecting humanity fit together quite closely. Math, science, art, religion, war, technology, business, morals, lifestyles, etc. -- it's all rather highly correlated. This might seem obvious to anyone with a brain now, but in the late 70's to a 18 or 19 year old who had never thought about it -- it was a real revelation. (If that makes me not too bright, I'll sign up for that)).

[SeaGypsy]

Certainly a large part of the breakdown of traditional family is consequential to the provision of welfare benefits to single parents. Another well meaning government intervention with possiblity the most serious unplanned consequences. No longer do mothers require a supporting partner, but deadbeat fathers can opt out of any responsibility without expecting their offspring to starve to death. Of course there are plenty of cases where such welfare is lifesaving, but it's hugely open to abuse- where 'welfare queen' mothers pop out a new baby every now & then for 20 years just to keep that income going & useless sperm bank fathers can go about sewing wild oats for even longer.

[dissident]

The white privilege myth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q_9JVFGGVU

I am tired of these minority racists assuming that I got my education and my house as "gifts" for being white. I had to work and not sit around and bitch about my neighbours. I saw blacks going through the same education system that I did. Nobody was putting them down. (Of course I am not talking about 1950s and 1960s US south). The real problem was that there was too few of them. Seems like it is the "victims" of "white privilege" who want things given to them on a platter and if they do not get them, then it's "white racism".

[KaiserJeep]

The problem is - mainly - that bigoted white people exclude minorities from "good" neighborhoods. This accounts for most of the wealth accumulation that Whites enjoy and Minorities can't have. They can't live in safe neighborhoods where homes appreciate, and they can't get affordable prime mortgages because those are not available for the places they are allowed to live. The rest of the wealth disparity is due to discrimination in hiring and promotions. The Federal government has been trying to "fix" the situation with Reverse Racism such as Affirmative Action hiring and the Fair Housing Act, creating anger in the majority.

Which is a quick summary of the material in this thread that you obviously did not read, before expressing your backlash against Reverse Racism.

Yet you STILL had to add the opinion that Blacks are causing the discrimination that is being done TO them by WHITES. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and attribute this very bigoted stance to ignorance and not prejudice. I too worked for decades and I too earned what I have. But you or I do not have Black skins.

BTW, I watched your video, and it's nonsense.

[Plantagenet]

The problem is - mainly - that bigoted white people exclude minorities from "good" neighborhoods....They can't live in safe neighborhoods where homes appreciate, and they can't get affordable prime mortgages because those are not available for the places they are allowed to live.

I'll have to take your word on that, since I've only lived in ethnically and racially mixed neighborhoods and areas. I've never had the experience of living in a "good neighborhood" where minorities are excluded by bigoted white people.

But you do have a homes in an "good" wealthy, and mostly white neighborhood on Nantucket, I think it is? That would be an extremely good neighborhood. And you're shopping right now for another home in in a "good" wealthy, and mostly white neighborhood on the shoreline of Lake Michigan? And you still own a home back in silicon valley, that must be worth millions.

How many homes do you need, anyway? Three homes for one retired couple?

Here's a suggestion for you....why you don't bypass the "bigoted white people" who exclude minorities, and sell your own home yourself on Nantucket to a minority family? List and sell it yourself to a black family with kids. That way you can bypass all the bigoted white people who would prevent such a sale. You can take back the mortgage yourself and offer prime rates or even subprime rates if you want. Just think, thanks to you those black kids will be raised in a safe neighborhood with good schools, and the black family will have an opportunity to build wealth by owning a house in a "good" neighborhood, just like you say you want.

After all, how many homes do you need? Rather then kvetching endlessly about "bigoted white people", you are lucky enough to have a rare opportunity yourself to do something thoughtful and non-bigoted to help solve this urgent problem.


KJ please sell us your home on Nantucket. Evil bigoted white people are preventing us from buying a home and you can help us by selling us your home.

Cheers!

[dissident]

Stop blowing smoke up people's a**es, KJ. Black ghettos do not form from Nazi style ethnic cleansing. South Boston, the Bronx, etc. were originally white dominated neighborhoods. If they became black enclaves then that is because whites were driven out. Non-white racists will claim that this is just white racism. In the real world, crime is a prime factor.

Affirmative action has shown no evidence of fixing any of the problems in the 'hood. That is because those problems are not the result of whitey denying blacks good jobs. The problems are due to self-isolation and a bunker mentality where participation in "whitey's system" (even if the employers are blacks) is looked down upon. This self-segregating community eco-system breeds poverty and the criminals that feed off it. You see the same pattern in white communities.

It's time to let the past go and move on.